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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 16:30 
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Today it is the Headmaster's turn to ask a question ...

On the one hand, we have a file repository, BaNaNas, hosted on a server.
On the other hand, we have an executable, OpenTTD (OTTD), installed on a subscriber's computer.

When OTTD is started up, a scan occurs. One presumes that a check of content installed on the subscriber's PC is being performed and that the results of this scan are sent to BaNaNaS to be compared to files loaded therein, checking for newer content, which, if found, is then installed onto the subscriber's PC.

The question is what information is harvested and sent to BaNaNaS? Is it data set out in a GRF's Action14? What about Action8? Is that also sent? Is any other data gathered and sent, and if so, what?

A follow up question: How is this information handled on BaNaNas? Is it stored? Is it identified with the source PC? Is it shared onto another server? If any of these, then if the file does not exist within BaNaNaS, is the dated gathered and stored irregardless?

The reason I ask is that I do NFO coding for both myself and others. I also test developmental files on behalf of other authors. A part of that process is to preview the results using OTTD. It is my preference that data contained in those GRFs not be harvested and stored on remote servers, at the very least until those files have been thoroughly vetted and determined to be ready for a public release.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 17:58 
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A very interesting question indeed.
Is there any information about this in the License Agreement in either OTTD or BaNaNaS?

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 18:32 
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Indeed interesting. Question is, where is the server stored that is used to collect these data, and what are the specific laws and regulations governing this entire operation in that particular country?

Usually when a scan is going to be performed for whaetever reasons and in legitimate cases, the user is informed about what's going to be done and why, which data is going to be collected, how it's going to be used, how it's goig to be stored - if at all - and for what reasons. Is this task even part of the BaNaNaS and is a user informed at any point?

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 18:55 
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SlemFreak wrote:
A very interesting question indeed.
Is there any information about this in the License Agreement in either OTTD or BaNaNaS?


From OTTD's readme.txt for the 1.0.3 release: (I assume it is similar for more current releases)

Quote:
1.0) About:
---- ------
OpenTTD is licensed under the GNU General Public License version 2.0. For
more information, see the file 'COPYING'.


Quote:
5.1) Logging of potentially dangerous actions:
---- ----------------------------------------
No personal information is stored.


From COPYING:

Quote:
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION

Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope.


As for BaNaNaS, I do not know how to access it from outside the game and at the moment, due to some ongoing development work, I would rather not access it from within the game.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 21:57 
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I don't know all the details about Bananas, but I don't think that's how it works.

I'd conjecture that the only time server/client communication happens with OTTD and Bananas is when you first click on "Check Online Content", which proceeds to only download the information for Bananas-content (grfs, etc.). This downloaded information is sorted/parsed, and then locally compared against the content already on the user's disk. GRF-IDs are compared, and if a local GRF-ID matches one from the downloaded list, then the MD5 sums are compared. If the MD5s are identical, the GRF is listed as "already on disk". If the MD5s are different, the version numbers are compared and listed as "update available" etc.

This is all the communication that is required to sort/parse the GRF situation. The only time information is uploaded is when the OTTD client tells the Bananas server "I want to download this thingy". Again, I'm not a Bananas developer, but I'm fairly certain client GRF-information is never actually sent to any external server.

EDIT: Yes, I asked frosch, an OTTD dev, and he confirmed my conjectures above.


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 22:18 
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From IRC:

Quote:
Supercheese: what about information about what the client already has, that's all controlled locally right?

frosch123: the client does not tell the server what it has

frosch123: the server just sends the ids and md5sum of everything it likes to offer the client

frosch123: the masterserver collects a list of all grfs and their names which have ever been used on a public server http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html

Rubidium: ... to fill http://www.openttd.org/en/servers (which lists the used NewGRFs)

So: using Bananas does not upload any information about what GRFs you have to OTTD servers, but if you host a public server, then the GRFID, MD5 Hash, and GRF Name are uploaded, to populate the list of known GRFs. http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 22:32 
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Well, I suppose that answers those questions... At least as far as I understands it... But I may possibly miss out on something... :P

Thanks Supercheese... :)

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 22:49 
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Supercheese wrote:

That page contains the following listing:
57422338 A8E67613E2569D36C61D5200614C5762 Dam Test v0.2338 - Windows
That is my file. It is developmental and has never been and will never be made available for download. In 2010 I loaded it into OTTD to preview my work. Somehow that information found its way into the page linked to above. How? Why does that page need this information? Why does OTTD not signal to me that this data is about to be retrieved? More importantly ... What measures are in place to prevent someone from installing malicious software within the OTTD executable or BaNaNas that might probe my machine for other more sensitive personal data?

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 23:02 
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wallyweb wrote:
That page contains the following listing:
57422338 A8E67613E2569D36C61D5200614C5762 Dam Test v0.2338 - Windows
That is my file. It is developmental and has never been and will never be made available for download. In 2010 I loaded it into OTTD to preview my work. Somehow that information found its way into the page linked to above. How? Why does that page need this information? Why does OTTD not signal to me that this data is about to be retrieved? More importantly ... What measures are in place to prevent someone from installing malicious software within the OTTD executable or BaNaNas that might probe my machine for other more sensitive personal data?

That I do not know; you'll have to ask an OTTD dev.


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 23:06 
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Thank you Supercheese. Sorry to put you through this. I will wait a bit to see if anybody here at Simscape can provide further insight and then I will follow your suggestion.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 23:18 
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:oops:

Clearly I didn't understand everything, so I'm keeping my butt out... :P But just as Wally I'm very interested to learn more about this though...

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 23:23 
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Supercheese wrote:
frosch123: the server just sends the ids and md5sum of everything it likes to offer the client
That doesn't make sense at all. A server doesn't just send whatever it likes to a client, that's not how servers and clients communicate in any type of server-to-client relationship. The client always initiate the traffic-flow by saying Send me this or Send me that and the server responds with the appropriate data. Depending on the system, the server may or may not record any information of the exchange of data.

The communication probably looks like any of the following:
Client: Send me info on all GRF's you have
Server: Sure, here's all I've got.
---
Client: Send me info on GRF x, y and z
Server: OK, I'll send you those. AND I will record you apparently having GRF x, y and z since you asked for them.
---
Client: Here's info on all my GRF's for you to record. And while you're at it, send me info on all of them.
Server: Sure.

Given the case with Wally's Dam Test-grf I would say that OTTD is giving info on everything you've got on your system to BaNaNaS and it is recorded on the mentioned site.

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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2013, 23:47 
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Thanks SlemFreak ... An excellent summary.

Using your structure I guess what I am looking for is:
Client:Hi Wally ... I am about to contact the server. Please mark those files I should not ask about nor report to the server.

Another solution would be a sandbox folder within OTTD in which to store and access developmental files whose data are not to be shared with the server.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 00:01 
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I'm guessing OTTD only sends info on GRF's that are active in the NewGRF-settings. If this is the case the easiest way to prevent your files to land on the servers is to block all communication to OTTD-servers. Either in your computers local firewall or in your network router/firewall. As soon as you're done, unblock it for normal operation.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 00:37 
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I think what frosch meant by what "it likes to offer" just means "the stuff that is currently available". I.e. if you hit Online Content from the Main Menu, you get all the content available for your version of OTTD, but if you hit Online Content from the NewGRF window, you only get the grfs available for your version of OTTD.

Also, if you try to join a server with a grf mismatch, the Online Content checks for the server's grf list and tries to offer you the missing grfs if they are on Bananas.


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 01:28 
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What I have done is move all my OTTD GRFs to a USB stick. I then copy the files I currently need to my OTTD newgrf folder. If those files are developmental then first I go off-line or I pull the RJ-45 or I push my cable modem's off-line button. All of this is a bit of a hassle but I hesitate to mess with my firewall settings. Of course the more elegant solution is for OTTD to offer the aforementioned sandbox option.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 14:10 
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wallyweb wrote:
Somehow that information found its way into the page linked to above. How?
By being used on a network game which was enabled to advertise to the server list. As OTTD doesn't collect personal information, as stated in the readme, this exactly all we know about that NewGRF.

Bananas isn't sending anything beside a "I want the current content list" to our servers, as easily verified by looking at the source code. If you want to believe something else, be my guest.

Michael


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 14:43 
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michi_cc wrote:
By being used on a network game which was enabled to advertise to the server list.


Thank you Michael. Unfortunately I do not participate in network games, unless I am misunderstanding the term. All I did was load the the GRF into a local game generated by my OTTD installation so that I might check it out for coding and/or graphic errors.

On a related note, what do you think of my idea for a Sandbox files menu within the NewGrf settings window such that developmental files could be moved to the Active files menu and yet be isolated from the Rescan Files and Check Online Contents buttons? I'd attempt a patch but those skills are beyond my expertise.

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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 16:32 
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wallyweb wrote:
Unfortunately I do not participate in network games, unless I am misunderstanding the term.
Network games are everything behind the "Multiplayer" button. I believe Rubidium initially seeded that list with everything he had, so the only other option for something to get on there is if somebody, for whatever reason, passed a GRF to Rb.

wallyweb wrote:
yet be isolated from the Rescan Files and Check Online Contents buttons?

Was that not clear enough?:
michi_cc wrote:
Bananas isn't sending anything beside a "I want the current content list" to our servers, as easily verified by looking at the source code.

Something that is not there can't be isolated.

Michael


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2013, 20:18 
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wallyweb wrote:
That page contains the following listing:
57422338 A8E67613E2569D36C61D5200614C5762 Dam Test v0.2338 - Windows
That is my file. It is developmental and has never been and will never be made available for download.
Sorry for the double post, but: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=900764#p900764

Downloaded 25 times, mystery solved.


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