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PostPosted: 30 Sep 2014, 10:14 
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With an ever so decreasing community it would be nice to get an idea where we stand today - and how we anticipate the future of TTDLX, (OpenTTD)?

This is an old community that has probably lasted longer than anyone could have imagined to begin with, attracting lots of people, both common players and artists whether it's about graphics or coding works. But times has changed as anybody can tell at this point. And unfortunately a lot of members have left due to arguments and other less needed activities in the past, significantly affecting the community in a very bad way. And unfortunately it's a group of members that has been allowed for many years to act as bullies, chasing away member after member, never to return again. It's a shame really. This community would probably have been a lot more active and progressive at this point had this group of bullies been banned for good already from the beginning. But this never happened and now we have the results... :?

Question is, what to expect for the future?

It's no secret that the way the community worked during the TTDP-era with a close cooperation between users and developers was indeed succesful and resulted in many innovations making TTDLX even more interesting and funnier to play. The OpenTTD development started out in the same manor, but unfortunately as a result of power structures it eventually turned into a small club with people looking after themselves rather than contributing to a community overall.

Is it possible to find a different way of working within this community, allowing for a continous development that not only improves the game even further, but also to somewhat bring back the enthusiastic atmosphere?

What do we want?

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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2014, 02:52 
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Hello,

I'm not very active recently in the TTDX world anymore, but often read the tt-forums but rarely come to this site. I think most TTDX folks simply does not know there is a site called simuscape at all.

For me the TTDpatch era was the era of the hacks. The whole TTDpatch was a big collection of hacks to change the behavior of the old game by Chris Sawyer. Just look at how the things was implemented, the magic train station length 7 (and +7), sign cheats etc. OTTD has pushed the game into a new level, that's called multiplayer. In spite of that time OTTD did not support too much newgrfs it was very entertaining to compete vs multiple people real time. Something that never will be possible with TTDpatch. Now OTTD have nearly all features of TTDpatch, almost all people have abandoned the 'old' variant.

About the future, I feel the newgrf people on the tt-forums, or the #openttdcoop development zone are actually productive, there are many new inventions ready to download, or simply via bananas. At simuscape, I can only find marvelous screenshots of infra, something which I never will be able to use in my games, and OzTrans has finally withdrawn all of his productions. For my point of view this of part of (O)TTD community has chosen the path to be exiles. At the forums I never seen the bullies you speak of. I've always felt proud when I seen my bridgeset in one of the screenshots thread. Long ago you have requested the parts of the total bridge grf, at that point I thought I will see a big infra-style newgrf soon, but later on the years my hopes were ceased off.

About the future, according to the today's online OTTD players, the player base has not really increased since the first OTTD version with multiplayer in my perception. I have made other measurements with the tt-forums screenshots subforum. In the first page I see topics dated from Tue Jul 01, 2014 to Tue Sep 30, 2014, thats ~3 months. On the 20th page I find dates Wed Jul 18, 2007 to Fri Oct 12, 2007 thats again nearly 3 months. In other hand the newgrf development pages are very active! The oldest topic is just 16 days old in the first page.

About the OTTD developers interaction, they were always very conservative about the new things. For example they are just implementing an 5 years old patch with removes the max heightlevel at 16. And I think they do this right, since they don't want to come up with a desynced mupliplayer. As my point of view, TTDpatch was never supposed to be stable, since it was only a singleplayer. Bad stories of the hastly inclusion was the first implementation PBS, which was removed after it has entered into the nighlies. And if you are looking for the something extra, there are many patches floating around, but most of them are not so stable. I feel I can say similar things regards of newgrf makers too. For example pikkabird has made an interesting post about how he should make better newgrfs for the players. Or others simply forbid the use their sets with other sets, which some players find it just annoying and against their freedom. And finally all people here only donate their free time to improving the game.

I was writing here only my opinion, and in hope the productions here and there will be released someday, unless they will be completely forgotten due of unavailability.


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PostPosted: 01 Oct 2014, 04:06 
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OTTD is not dying. Quite the opposite. It is among the 12 top rated games in Ubuntu software center. And apart from tt-forums we have the German and the Russian communities that are quite active. Currently there is only one threat for OTTD: TrainFever. But TrainFever is a commercial product. Development there has to be even more tight than OTTD.


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PostPosted: 02 Oct 2014, 13:09 
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For myself, the excitement is here. Cirdan has already introduced several new features in his fork of OpenTTD.

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 18:10 
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thgergo wrote:
About the future, I feel the newgrf people on the tt-forums, or the #openttdcoop development zone are actually productive, there are many new inventions ready to download, or simply via bananas. At simuscape, I can only find marvelous screenshots of infra, something which I never will be able to use in my games, and OzTrans has finally withdrawn all of his productions. For my point of view this of part of (O)TTD community has chosen the path to be exiles. At the forums I never seen the bullies you speak of. I've always felt proud when I seen my bridgeset in one of the screenshots thread. Long ago you have requested the parts of the total bridge grf, at that point I thought I will see a big infra-style newgrf soon, but later on the years my hopes were ceased off.


The bullies are there alright and there's a reason as to why Simuscape exists today. No doubt about that. Others have simply left and completely abandonded the game altogether, taking a huge amount of knowledge with them as they went out the doors. We can only imagine how much of productivity in terms of new graphics, new features and innovations has gone thanks to that little group of bullies. And as mentioned in another thread, all the activities performed by that little group isn't always visible to everybody, simply because everything doesn't take place in a post over at TT-forums...

As far as those bridges concerns there's actually some new bridges developed, and more at the early stages at this point. Some of them showcased in the Innovatia-thread, while others have yet to be shown... :) The biggest problem at this point is the lack of coders really!


Quote:
About the OTTD developers interaction, they were always very conservative about the new things. For example they are just implementing an 5 years old patch with removes the max heightlevel at 16. And I think they do this right, since they don't want to come up with a desynced mupliplayer.


As you mentioned yourself, we're all devoting our free time to do this. The problem isn't that those OpenTTD devs isn't doing something, the problem is that their attitudes towards both newcomers and other members suggesting ideas and the sort, results in people leaving altogether! Not to mention all those "freelancing" members devoting both skills and time to develop patches that soo many people ask for, only to find that since those OpenTTD devs didn't come up with the ideas themselves - or had the ability to contribute themselves - ignore these new features for as long as possible - if not for ever!

Unfortunately this is mainly a result of these devs putting themselves on a pedestal, filling themselves with the taste of power that determines who's in charge of the evolution of TTDLX!


Quote:
I feel I can say similar things regards of newgrf makers too. For example pikkabird has made an interesting post about how he should make better newgrfs for the players. Or others simply forbid the use their sets with other sets, which some players find it just annoying and against their freedom. And finally all people here only donate their free time to improving the game.


To me personally Pikka's - and those others following in the same footsteps - work isn't TTDLX. The entire 32bpp is more or less nothing but a cheaper version of any other 3d-game out there - and a bad one at that, rather then a TTDLX game. TTDLX is 8 bpp, no more no less!

But that's my opinion! :)


Quote:
I was writing here only my opinion, and in hope the productions here and there will be released someday, unless they will be completely forgotten due of unavailability.


Again, the problem here isn't the graphics itself. A lot of it is ready to be released, but with so many talented coders leaving the community the last couple of years due to the group of bullies over at TT-forums, it has become difficult to find coders - unless the ability to code is there as well. And I simply don't have the time, nor the interest to start learning how to code.

At the moment my main focus are on the following parts;

  • INFRA Trains
  • INFRA Trees
  • INFRA Buildings
  • INFRA EyeCandy
  • INFRA Bridges
  • INFRA Industries

INFRA Trains is a continuation of AndersI's Swedish Set, but most of the graphics are redrawn or on its way to be redrawn due to new rules as far as lengths concerns. There are also some new models included in the set. Good news as far as INFRA Trains concerns is that there's already a coder involved, and the set will be released.

INFRA Trees is a continuation of my previous tree sets, but updated with new trees. A small group of testers have tried this out and as soon as I'm done with the trains, I'll update and improve what's been reported.

INFRA Buildings is a completely new set and is the one project that has lasted the longest time. A huge amount of buildings are included, but it still lacks construction stages and snowy versions. A coder has been involved but is currently offline due to real life issues!

INFRA EyeCandy is perhaps the one project that has been equally attended to as INFRA Buildings. It contains a huge amount of graphics that allows a user to spice up their games in an almost endless way...

INFRA Bridges is another completely new set and will add some interesting bridges to the game...

And finally, INFRA Industries, which is an idea to change and improve the current ECS. While ECS itself is a great alternative, it most certainly screams for new and better graphics...

Apart from these projects I also have my infrastructure with roads and rails, new stations, airports, the snow replacement, (cliffs), but I have yet to figure out how to approach this... :)

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 19:00 
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SAC wrote:
Again, the problem here isn't the graphics itself. A lot of it is ready to be released, but with so many talented coders leaving the community the last couple of years due to the group of bullies over at TT-forums


Can you list who these people are, by name? It's really better to have evidence.

I am honestly a little disturbed at the tone of these posts. Accusations are being made without much substance, and some of the people you've named as bullies in the OzTrans thread, as far I can see, blameless.

I don't feel like this is a nice place to be a member of right now, which is the reason I asked you to delete my account.

I have been on the end of arguments with you before SAC, and it can be very hurtful and upsetting. I have only felt like quitting TTD twice, and you were directly involved in one of those times.


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 19:33 
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Well, for those of us who have been part of this community for awhile knows all to well that people have left due to the way they have been treated. There's no reason whatsoever to make a list of names to confirm this. OzTrans is the latest to leave and it doesn't take too many searches to find a number of posts where he's being "under attack" - and usually by the same group of people.

And again, what isn't said and written on TT-forums is said and written on other channels. Just because some of them aren't open to a wider audience doesn't necessarily mean it's said and written in secret. Wikileaks has no monopoly on leaks... ;)

And I'm sure it's not to pleasant to find a post or a thread that actually discuss and focus on these problems, especially as they are usually swept away or locked by TT-forums mods should a similar discussion arise that wants to focus on these issues. And in particular if it means that such a discussion should point out one or two of the members usually involved as it's more or less a rule without exceptions that this group of bullies needs to be protected at all costs.

At Simuscape we've chosen a different approach, and we feel that a problem doesn't go away simply by ignoring it!

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 19:48 
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SAC wrote:
There's no reason whatsoever to make a list of names to confirm this.


Well I disagree.

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with so many talented coders leaving the community the last couple of years due to the group of bullies over at TT-forums


^ that is a big assertion to make. It's better to have evidence for these things.

You're naming people by name who you say are doing things wrong, and you're making claims about the effects of their actions.

If this was anything serious, and not just a silly game:
(1) you'd be at risk of defaming and slandering people. Your claims would have to be true to avoid being defamation or slander.
(2) You're at risk of being a bully yourself, or at minimum hurting people, some of whom I'm fairly convinced are blameless.

You can't reasonably list one set of people by name and call them bullies and evil rats, and then refuse to name the other people who you claim are being driven out.


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 20:06 
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andythenorth wrote:
You can't reasonably list one set of people by name and call them bullies and evil rats, and then refuse to name the other people who you claim are being driven out.


Of course I can! Those who have left during the years due to arguings, bad behaviour and so on hasn't done anything wrong, and as such doesn't need to be listed! It's the ones who have made them leave in the first place who has done wrong!

Besides, if memory serves me right even you at some point considered moving your work to Simuscape...

Quote:
If this was anything serious, and not just a silly game:
(1) you'd be at risk of defaming and slandering people. Your claims would have to be true to avoid being defamation or slander.
(2) You're at risk of being a bully yourself, or at minimum hurting people, some of whom I'm fairly convinced are blameless.


Again, it doesn't take too much of a relevant search to gather enough information and evidence as far as this group of bullies concerns. And those of us who have been part of this community for a longer time doesn't even need a search. We know by experience. Simuscape isn't here by pure coincidence...

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 20:17 
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Quote:
with so many talented coders leaving the community the last couple of years due to the group of bullies over at TT-forums


^ Can you actually provide any names for this claim?

I have a list of one: OzTrans. And I am strictly dubious about his talents as a coder.


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 20:36 
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andythenorth wrote:
Quote:
with so many talented coders leaving the community the last couple of years due to the group of bullies over at TT-forums


^ Can you actually provide any names for this claim?

I have a list of one: OzTrans. And I am strictly dubious about his talents as a coder.


Again, as pointed out;

SAC wrote:
Well, for those of us who have been part of this community for awhile knows all to well that people have left due to the way they have been treated. There's no reason whatsoever to make a list of names to confirm this. OzTrans is the latest to leave and it doesn't take too many searches to find a number of posts where he's being "under attack" - and usually by the same group of people.


...and;

Quote:
Those who have left during the years due to arguings, bad behaviour and so on hasn't done anything wrong, and as such doesn't need to be listed! It's the ones who have made them leave in the first place who has done wrong!

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 20:38 
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Yes and I can claim that the moon is made of green cheese.

Are you quite sure that you have any names you could list, even in theory?


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 21:06 
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Well, in all honesty I haven't been to the moon myself so for all I know it may very well be made up of some green cheese...

Quote:
Are you quite sure that you have any names you could list, even in theory?


Again, these people who have left due to issues over at TT-forums doesn't need to be listed. It's completely irrelevant and doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever. This is, as most people know, not the first time a discussion takes place as a result of someone being forced away from our TTDLX community. And as OzTrans himself points out upon his departure;

Quote:
…from those responsible, who have truly excelled themselves; I'm not the first one to leave and I won't be the last one either…


...or as someone else points out regarding graphics artists leaving;

Quote:
...then maybe some of the best graphics artists wouldn't feel the need to forgo GPL to hide away their projects on Simuscape or keep them to themselves like michaelblunk.


I mean seriously, anyone who wants to get all this confirmed in any way doesn't need to go to much trouble finding enough information...

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 21:45 
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SAC wrote:
Again, these people who have left due to issues over at TT-forums doesn't need to be listed. It's completely irrelevant and doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever.

Is it irrelevant because you can't actually provide a list? Because the list I can see of talented coders forced out is one: OzTrans.

Quote:
This is, as most people know, not the first time a discussion takes place as a result of someone being forced away from our TTDLX community.


The only other person I recall being forced away was Leanden, who was treated badly by a bunch of people behaving like idiots who have nothing to do with the people you are listing as bullies. The *only* time I though of quitting tt-forums and moving threads here was because of that stupid horrible bunfight about BROS.

Who else is on your list? Michael has always done his own thing. Snail? Wallyweb?

OzTrans wrote:
…from those responsible, who have truly excelled themselves; I'm not the first one to leave and I won't be the last one either…

OzTrans is responsible for his own departure. I was the who one accidentally triggered it, but he left because he wants to 'reserve' a range of grfids. Unfortunately, that isn't actually possible. Not because devs are on a power trip, but because it's just not possible.

Moreover, OzTrans was repetitively offensive in his handling of the situation. I find it odd that OzTrans is excused being a bully on grounds of 'talent', but others aren't awarded the same free pass. OzTrans has a long history of being offensive, intended or accidentally.

Quote:
I mean seriously, anyone who wants to get all this confirmed in any way doesn't need to go to much trouble finding enough information...


I did search. I am puzzled why you are singling out Supercheese or NGC3982. I couldn't find anything they've said in tt-forums or in #openttd that entitles you to brand them as evil rats. If I was either of those two, and I encountered these threads, I would be very upset.

It's also puzzling why you *don't* single out others. Rubidium, or planetmaker for example, who take very clear positions when *they* think someone is being stupid. Or historically, DaleStan. Or above all me. Sometimes I deliberately troll people for amusement, and sometimes I simply can't contain my haste and anger at something I think is dumb. So why pick on people who, as far as I can tell, have done nothing to deserve it?


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 22:45 
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andythenorth wrote:
The only other person I recall being forced away was Leanden, who was treated badly by a bunch of people behaving like idiots who have nothing to do with the people you are listing as bullies. The *only* time I though of quitting tt-forums and moving threads here was because of that stupid horrible bunfight about BROS.


Yes, but this is the point - members are being forced away from the community due to a group of people who since long has set an agenda over at TT-forums, either you're with us or you're against us kind of thing! And this has been going on for a long period of years, and there have been plenty of discussions on how to solve this and make people feel at home in our community. Yet nothing changes - and for obvious reasons I might add!


Quote:
OzTrans is responsible for his own departure.


Well, I'm sure everyone who has left the community is responsible for their own departure, but that's besides the point. The point is, what made them leave? Simply by posting a message with the sentence;

I'm not the first one to leave and I won't be the last one either…

...speaks for itself! If this wasn't the case and if I was running around suggesting things about bullies and the sort, there wouldn't be any sentences like that at all... Or would it?


Quote:
I did search. I am puzzled why you are singling out Supercheese or NGC3982. I couldn't find anything they've said in tt-forums or in #openttd that entitles you to brand them as evil rats. If I was either of those two, and I encountered these threads, I would be very upset.


Well, I'd say that's a question about where you searched... Or what you wanted to search even...


Quote:
It's also puzzling why you *don't* single out others. Rubidium, or planetmaker for example, who take very clear positions when *they* think someone is being stupid. Or historically, DaleStan. Or above all me. Sometimes I deliberately troll people for amusement, and sometimes I simply can't contain my haste and anger at something I think is dumb. So why pick on people who, as far as I can tell, have done nothing to deserve it?


I never said that this group was the sole group of people responsible for making people leave. I said that the ones listed are among the worst, but that they also have followers. Followers whom through their eager to be part of this "group" also interprete this groups specific behaviour as a license to act in a similar way...

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 23:03 
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Ok, well

1. you're clearly not going to provide any evidence of people other than OzTrans being driven out ;)

2. there's no point getting stuck in an argument with you 'on behalf' of people I think you're being offensive to. If they ever do find this and take offence, they can speak for themselves.

So I'll leave it there, and we can both go back to drawing or whatever I am keeping you from.


Last edited by andythenorth on 04 Oct 2014, 23:41, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 23:10 
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Well, at least you added Leanden so that makes two on that "list"... ;)

But you're right, we aren't getting anywhere. I stand by my point of views and I have good reasons to do so. Besides, this discussion could only take place here at Simuscape as any similar discussions over at TT-forums would have been locked or erased quicker than a ray of light, while the responsible ones usually continues backstabbing people in more "hidden" places...

Again, Wikileaks has no monopoly on leaks... ;)

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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 23:42 
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Oh gee, come on, the #openttd irc logs are not some big secret that has been discovered. It's a public channel on a public server, with public logs.

http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/opentt ... count=1000

Most of the regular posters are well aware that they are talking absolutely in public.
The actual secret channels aren't logged. ;)


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PostPosted: 04 Oct 2014, 23:58 
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andythenorth wrote:
The actual secret channels aren't logged. ;)


I rest my case... *cough* Wikileaks *cough*...

:twisted:

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PostPosted: 05 Oct 2014, 00:02 
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Well, maybe you know more than me. I'm not actually allowed in the secret channels. I can't even find where they are. Which must be proof that they exist of course.


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