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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2012, 08:26 
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I have to admit, I also have my reservations as far as 32-bit graphics concerns, not only for the sake of all the extra work that's required by an artist to meet the extended zoom options, but perhaps mostly because it violates the entire soul of TTDLX. And for me personally 32-bit graphics, neither as a player, nor as an artist, will never be an option for me. I enjoy TTDLX for a reason and the possibilities with 8-bits along with the normal zoom levels are quite enough in terms of game-play and customizable abilities. :)

Besides, there are still soo much that can be done with TTDLX from an 8-bit graphics point of view...

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 01:51 
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8bit has its limitations especially with vehicles. Maybe you are negative towards 32bpp due to the style it has adopted. IMO the problem is the lighting standard they use to render the sprites. I have argued about this to death only to be scorned and ignored. So I refrained form getting into the effort to learn blender and contribute to the 32bpp project. My 32bpp sprites are pixel art and only standard zoom. Extra zoom x2 is fine but when you jump to 4x it is an amazing eye candy but useless game wise.


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 02:22 
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kamnet wrote:
OpenTTD, as far as I can tell, is not switching from exclusively 8-bit to exclusively 32-bit graphics.
Yes, I know; but that is what they should do. 8-bit graphics should not be used together with 32-bit graphics. There is nothing wrong with having 32-bit graphics; players simply make a choice at the beginning of a game.

Just imagine, you are using OpenGfx 32-bit landscapes (base graphics); then you want to use NARoads (8-bit). This, if it can be used at all, will look awful.

Using NARoads is already a problem with 8-bit OpenGfx; it looks hopeless.

I expect, that artists wanting to create graphic packs (whatever they be, buildings, vehicles etc) will disappear, as they don't want the hassle developing 3D graphics, convert them to 2D i(ncluding all the zoom levels). This will take far too long to justify the result. I for one will stick with 8-bit only.

athanasios wrote:
8bit has its limitations especially with vehicles...
It would be nice to be able to create more detailed vehicle graphics. But 32-bit was never the answer as the relationship between vehicle length and height ist still wrong; in fact it looks even worse; e.g. passenger coaches are far too short compared to their height.

Anyway, we shall see how this turns out, if and when, they finish just the OpenGfx Base Graphics.


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 03:28 
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OzTrans wrote:
Yes, I know; but that is what they should do.

Why? As I understand it players and newgrf developers will be under no obligation to use 32-bit graphics, if they want to stick with 8-bit they can carry on as before. It's just a question of giving people more choice.


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 08:32 
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PaulC wrote:
... It's just a question of giving people more choice.
Yes, they should have that choice, but mixing 8-bit and 32-bit graphics in a game should not be possible. I don't want to see my work (in 8-bit) in a 32-bit screenshot.


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 08:35 
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OzTrans wrote:
I don't want to see my work (in 8-bit) in a 32-bit screenshot.


I tend to agree there! Regardless of people's choices, (and I'm glad people are getting more and more choices as far as TTDLX concerns), but seeing my own work in a horrific mix between 8-bit- and 32-bit graphics, doesn't sound too appealing to be honest... :shock:

That's a visual effect I could do without... :roll:

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 12:57 
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OzTrans wrote:
Yes, they should have that choice, but mixing 8-bit and 32-bit graphics in a game should not be possible. I don't want to see my work (in 8-bit) in a 32-bit screenshot.

I'm guessing it's things like this that you don't want to see: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 99#p995089

It was your suggestion that OTTD should make the switch from 8-bit to 32-bit graphics that grabbed my attention, when what I really think you meant was that it shouldn't allow the two to be mixed. But how else do you expect people to use 32-bit graphics when not all sprites are drawn? And why would it bother you if people did choose to mix the two? Surely that's up to the user, even if it does look horrible. I don't think it's our job as grf authors to dictate other peoples preferences to that extent (just my two pennies worth on the subject).

Anyway, I don't want to give the wrong impression here: 32-bit graphics aren't for me, and I suspect there are plenty of OTTD players and graphics artists who feel the same. Heck, I often prefer the original graphics over many new grf sets. I'm all for improving and enhancing the game, but I still want it to look and feel like TTD. ;)

Why do you think that NA Roads look "hopeless" with OGFX? :?:


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012, 13:24 
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SAC wrote:
Okey, so judging by this we're at least two still playing TTDP... Well, what a huge community we are... :lol:
Three ... If I can get some newobject coding completed and find time to start a new game. 8-)

8bpp vs 32 ... I'm still a noob at coding, and then they throw this at me ... :cry:

I agree with SAC and OzTrans for the very reasons that they cited so eloquently. :bowing:

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2012, 04:05 
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PaulC wrote:
Why do you think that NA Roads look "hopeless" with OGFX?
NARoads replaces Base Graphics sprites. Most of the sprites have terrain attached. That cannot be avoided. Now, just look at the road edges, which are TTD 'original' terrain and adjacent you have something completely different. Have a look at the snowy sprites in particullar in an OpenGfx vs NARoads situation. That of course is true in 8bit vs 8bit as well as 8bit vs 32bit.

Players not familiar with the issue must believe those who created that NARoads GRF must have rocks in their heads ...


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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2012, 04:39 
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Sure, but to my eyes the combination of OGFX and NA Roads doesn't look so bad; more "useable" than "hopeless", I'd say. It only really stands out in tropic climate where the terrain is a completely different shade...


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012, 18:36 
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Four(ish :cucko: ).

Still on TTDP, although 'playing' might be too big of a word to use. Have been trying (and restarting over and over) to build a nice scenario ever since SAC started showcasing INFRA.

But I have been on TTDP since the late nineties and still fondly recall Josef's 'impossible changes' list............


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012, 19:56 
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Interesting... yet another TTDP player... May I ask why?

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012, 21:29 
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TTDP was getting too much of a pain as GRF's would repeatedly become incompatible.

OTTD has greatly expanded the scope of the game.

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2012, 15:03 
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I guess I do just have bad eyes. For the most part I exclusively play with NARoads (or, I would be... *whistles innocently*) and OpenGFX, never saw any defects. Then again, nobody's commented on my recent sprites, so they may have just been fed up with me altogether. Then again I probably did piss some people off with my recent comments about how devs have treated users like children...

Sorry, rambling.

I agree that the 32-bit graphics need a LOT of work. I seriously have no idea why nobody stopped the insanity of the poor scaling early on. I'm not so certain on the future of using 32-bit graphics in a program designed to run 8-bit graphics. Awhile back I turned on the 32bpp blitter and tried to run my current game (2048x2048, 1200-something vehicles, ChillCore Patch Pack) and it pretty much reduced my 2.8 GHz quad-core 4GB PC to a crawl. I may be pushing the limits, but I think that as PCs get faster and cheaper, people will want to push the boundaries of their game experience more, but if the graphics can't keep up on reasonably decent PCs, then it's uptake will be very slow as well.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012, 03:10 
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kamnet wrote:
I guess I do just have bad eyes. For the most part I exclusively play with NARoads ...
Unfortunately, I have very good ones and I see every misplaced pixel. I cannot stand seeing screenshots, that have NARoad verges of TTDLX 'original' grass and next to it there is OpenGfx grass. Or even worse, among 32-bit Graphics.

This issue is currently being addressed, the set is in the workshop ...

Quote:
... I agree that the 32-bit graphics need a LOT of work. ...
Sure does, but why on earth do we need to have it ? It destroys the spirit of TTDLX. Why don't they go and create a true 3D transport game with all the bells and whistles ?


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012, 06:07 
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OzTrans wrote:
kamnet wrote:
... I agree that the 32-bit graphics need a LOT of work. ...
Sure does, but why on earth do we need to have it ? It destroys the spirit of TTDLX. Why don't they go and create a true 3D transport game with all the bells and whistles ?
Probably because their work is already half done. Perhaps they will find some better minds to prevail and fork 32bpp from 8bpp. Then the question will be: Will they follow their established pattern and abandon an incomplete but promising 8bpp game in favour of 32bpp?

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2012, 22:43 
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I still play TTDP, and it's easier to test my GRF there. Oscar's positioning tool is very valuable for an old-timer that doesn't 'template' the sprites and expect everything to fall into place at once. Maybe I'll relearn someday...

I really like JGR:s programmable signals - they have solved every routing problem I have thrown at them, so far. But as TTDP is 256x256, the complexity of the network will not be the same as on a large OTTD map...

But I also play OTTD, as it is actively developed, there are so many new (sometimes also interesting) things, and some newGRFs are OTTD only.


As for the "change newGRF in an active game" - as others have pointed out, you have the same risk for problems in TTDP, but as the map size is smaller, and the user base is (much) smaller, and the dev team is zero, it's not really a problem there.

I understand the reasoning for making it (changing newGRFs) impossible to do by mistake in OTTD, where the devs are actively working on bug reports - it must be very disconcerting to chase a bug for days, and then realize that it was an effect of a GRF change. And recollecting the vastly larger user base, you should realize that it is an actual problem that has been solved.

AndersI (who still hasn't set a signature)

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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012, 22:28 
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think i may have to have both installed as the grf decoder does not like opentdd. it says it cant use the address path due to spaces in the folder and file names ive checked and there isnt any.

so ttdp will be installed on my laptop mid next week when the PC goes into storage


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012, 22:56 
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AndersI wrote:
Oscar's positioning tool is very valuable for an old-timer that doesn't 'template' the sprites and expect everything to fall into place at once.

There's a sprite aligner in OTTD if that's what you're refering to...


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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2012, 23:17 
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do i refer to that? i have no idea ive never tried making these so i dont know. im a complete beginner all i know is ive got something called Grfwizard plus grf coders and i was following a tutorial. i got so far and it came up with that message and thats as far as ive got lol.


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