Oh believe me, not everything has been discussed in this topic or at some other places. Some of it has been discussed through e-mails... , so the OTTD devs are well aware of this entire issue.

But being aware and being interested in doing it are two completely different things...

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So is this extra chatter just on IRC, because I still haven't seen anything more on the forums? But if some people are being dicks about this on IRC, I expect they are dicks about other things too. I may not know what's been said, but I still dont think it's worth worrying about, and if IRC is seperate from the forums (which I assume it is) then I wouldn't let it prejudice any further forum activity.


You're certainly entilted to your opinions about BaNaNaS (and I wouldn't want to suggest otherwise), but what frustrates me is that you have no real first hand experience of it - or indeed OTTD in general - and that doesn't put you in a very good position to make criticisms or ask for changes. That's not to say that things couldn't be improved or that your suggestions aren't good, just that it would help if you could see things from the perspective of those who use it on a regular basis.

I've just had a skim over the locked topic again: I don't think people meant any harm when they kept asking for the grf to be uploaded to BaNaNaS, I think they just wanted it to be more easily accessible to more people. But having made your position clear I don't think you need to keep justifying it, and getting drawn into a debate on the merits and shortcomings of BaNaNaS isn't very constructive because it just invites people to keep challenging your decision. Best to just say your piece and let it be, and people will move on.

Actually, during my last discussion with OTTD devs. I informed them I intended to keep the files on the BaNaNaS, simply because I've learned more about the in-game downloader system you use in OTTD - thus knowing a bit more of the importance of it.

However, as Rubidium finally decided to remove them and not having to deal with anyone suggesting changes to the BaNaNaS itself, (not the in-game downloading system), it's out of my hands I'm afraid!

My last bid was; Keep the files for the sake of the end users. Their bid was; Remove it so we don't have to deal with people wanting to change our personal goals...

Simple as that!

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Bananas is a good idea but badly implemented.
For example it doesn't offer screenshots. Think about it when you download a map or a scenario and you find out that you have wasted bandwidth and time.

In-game screenshots might be difficult to implement, and for scenarios I'm not sure how useful they would be anyway. A well-written description should provide you with sufficient details, and most downloads have weblinks that should lead you to further information. If that's not the case then it's the fault of the uploader, not the system.

But isn't it rather pointless to discuss such things here, away from the eyes of the OTTD devs?

While they may not reply, (which I can understand ), they most certainly can see this discussion, believe you me...

Besides, I wanted to continue this discussion since the one over at TT-forums got closed, (oddly enough), and I felt that people still wanted to have their saying...

I am located in Sweden after all, the land of freedom in all possible ways...

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Really? I don't see too many devs on the members list. And I doubt they would place too much importance on what's said here...

But regardless, the TT Forums are clearly the best place for any discussion on improving BaNaNaS (as opposed to this topic, which is really about your decision not to use it).

And who said anything about anyone of them using their TT-forums names?



Actually, I'd even say that they don't place too much importance to what's said by anyone - unless it's close friends or valued followers...



...which is absolutely true. But it's never wrong to allow people ventilating their personal opinions on matters...

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Cynic!

Yeah, couldn't help myself...

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i have the simple principle: if you need a readme to explain / express it, then your description in the BaNaNaS isnt good enough to make me download it (mBlunks gfx excluded, but even his house/station grfs i use without even reading the readme's till i used them for almost a year....)

this also goes for TOC and TOA's of multiple pages, nobody reads a manual anymore, we play, we try & test and if we dont like it we remove it. thats how the end users are, and they dont give a shit about licencing. licences are only important for artists and afaik by releasing content to BaNaNaS your making it public anyway. as long as credits are given, its cool (and the stolen trees on banana's both had your name mentioned)

Indeed. In fact, I need to go back through bananas and edit my uploaded files to make sure that the descriptions and the readme files match (or, in the case of Scott Joplin Anthology, make sure there IS a readme so that people can actually view it inside OpenTTD).

And, apparently, I can't do that now. I onlyneeded to add a redme and changelog to my files. According to PlanetMaker, unless I re-compile the NewGRF or change something in the base music files to create a new hash - and bump the version number - the system won't let me make any changes.

How unfortunate. I would, indeed, consider that broken-in-concept.

...which somehow proves my point...

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As I understand it, part of the problem with Bananas is that the technology it is built on is "difficult", and none of the current OpenTTD developers really know how to fix it properly. Perhaps it requires an entire re-write... but so far there's nobody volunteering to do that. Should that ever happen though, I'm sure some of these issues can be taken into consideration!

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Just curious, who created BaNaNaS?

nah its how it stores the newgrf, it uses the md4 or sha1 sum, if you only add readme then the data doesnt change, thus checksum is equal, the readme only changes the bananas help text etc

The readme doesn't actually change the BaNaNaS help text (that's a separate field in the upload form that you can already freely edit). It does, however, make itself available in OpenTTD's basic configuration section. To me it just doesn't make sense to have to actually CHANGE a NewGRF for the sake of creating a new MD5 hashtag, just so you can upload some documentation that didn't previously exist. It's not a new versions of the NewGRF.

I can surely appreciate that this may be the case. But why couldn't anyone of them have said so in the first place - already when I sent that first e-mail? I'm sure this entire discussion wouldn't have arised, had a polite respond back reached me.

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Edit: When composing this post, I spent quite a lot of time marking emphasis with bold text - now I realize this is not visible! Please disable things that don't have effect, or we will all waste time (until we remember that it doesn't work).

I probably shouldn't, but here goes:

First Bananas - I think it's OK. But read on...

A discussion about Bananas (or however it is CamelCapitalized) is probably useless here, much better to try to discuss it on the OTTD forums.

I actually like the idea of Bananas

- add-on:s to the game are available for download from the game

- once on Bananas the files never disappears (making it impossible to use a scenario using the GRF) although the visibility of a file can be changed (no new users of an outdated GRF) assuming you do the right incantations (I understand that it's possible, but I don't understand what I should do to make it happen - not that I need to make it happen for the moment)

- Bananas is in active development (in contrast to GRFCrawler which feels nicer, but is under threat of being taken down by its author)

I don't like the current implementation

- the lack of information and links when you browse through the available downloads (a link to the home page/project page/forum thread describing the GRF is an absolute minimum that should be available for those that don't just point and click...)

- the user interface for the uploader

- the method of verificating that the uploader is legitimate (is there any kind of 'ownership' verification?)


Secondly licenses

Please all, do read the license (any license you decide to use) before you use it - if anything is unclear, postpone the release and ask here/anywhere until you are sure you understand what the license says (and not says).

A license is a contract between you and your potential users (be they in-game or derivative works oriented). Backing on the license, trying to change what it 'should' mean is as big a crime by you, as breaking the license is by a user. Accept the contract you 'signed' by saying "Released according to license...".

You can't say "released under license A.B.C" and then say "except...". Find another license. Accept the fact that you didn't read the fine print, and remember to do it the next time.

Sorry, but that's the point with a license - both parts should be able to trust each other to keep to the contract.

AndersI, author of Swedish Trains and some other TTD oriented utilities (TTDPC, for example)

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