A recent topic over at TT-forums about some issues regarding artists handling of their own custom files vs. the BaNaNaS apparently didn't meet up with the requirements of a non-objective mod, thus it got locked.

Anyone feeling an urge to ventilate their opinons may continue to do so in this thread!

Here's the background information;

Awhile ago I sent OTTD Devs an e-mail requesting for my currently available files on the BaNaNaS to be removed. It's the Stolen Trees and the follow-up .grf Test Trees. Reason be is that I want to have all my files located in one and the same location, namely my own site which I feel is only natural and the most logical thing for me.

Those two files were uploaded mainly as a gesture to make it easier for players to find them and include them in their OTTD-games during a period when I didn't have Simuscape up and running. But it has also been announced for a very long time now that Simuscape would become a reality - especially for those following the progress with both INFRA and Innovatia, and since Simuscape has been launched I no longer feel this gesture is needed as the Download section here is available to anyone world wide without any restrictions - apart from a requirement to register an account.

There are several reasons as to why a registration requirement is enforced, but the main one is to ensure that spam attacks and other commercial attempts to place ads and the sort on this forum is made a bit more difficult - especially as a further step is included to earn the right of being a full member of the Public Arena - something which is explained in the Welcome Center thread.

A response to my e-mail was later sent by Planetmaker, pointing out that files cannot be deleted from the BaNaNaS as it would defy one of its purposes;

1) Ensure that all old savegames can be loaded always with the correct
NewGRFs - and that means the very same newgrf in every single bit, not
any newer or older version as only that ensures correctly working savegames.

2) Give players a one-click ingame download for add-ons.

He also informed that BaNaNaS cannot and will not re-direct players for content download anywhere else.

I haven't replied to this response yet, but it is a fact, regardless of OTTD Devs opinions about these files or regardless of any purposes wity the BaNaNaS, that these files aren't the property of anyone else but myself. I grant permission to use them by making them available, and I reserve the right to determine where these files, both current and future ones, should be available. Not OTTD devs. nor the presence of the BaNaNaS content distribution system.

A few days later Owen responded with a follow-up to Planetmakers reply, explaining the benefits of the BaNaNaS with the automatic downloading of new .grf's. He also brought up the possibility to add site links to the BaNaNaS, thus potentially driving more visitors to Simuscape...

My own personal point of view is that I'm not spending hours upon hours drawing graphics for TTDLX or any other games out there with the purpose to attract visitors nor a dedicated fan group. Believe it or not but I'm drawing for my own sake and because I enjoy it, and as it turns out it's also very relaxing from a variety of different aspects. A side bonus - or side effect or whatever you prefer to call it - is that others will benefit from this by having the ability to download and use these files in their own personal games. And for this very purpose a Download section is available here at Simuscape. And Simuscape itself is launched for the very purpose of allowing others to see and follow the progress and development of my files - something which in a way is a result of an earlier encouragement from a well-known game developer corporation.

It also needs to be pointed out that I'm not interested in keeping my custom files to myself. Again, my main reason for drawing is purely for my own sake, but others interested in the same custom work should absolutely be given the opportunity to download and install these files - no doubt about this what so ever. I'm not running a business here, but my files are done when they are done, and when they're done they will also be available to a wider audience. As simple as that!

As for the BaNaNaS issue itself, my request for removal of INFRA-files has resulted in a discussion, and Owen himself thinks that I should give BaNaNaS a chance and at the same time open up my content out to the whole spectrum of OTTD-players. He continues by stating that doing so will make maintenance easier for all, while still ensuring that I'll get properly credited and players will be able to find out more about me and my work.

I can surely understand some of the arguments of files being easily available through some in-game device, (haven't played OTTD so I'm not entirely sure how it works), but I also feel that some of the arguments sort of fails as I do find the BaNaNaS to be somewhat disorganized - at least from a visitors point of view. If being a completely new user, never to heard of for instance INFRA, will not at this point find any INFRA-files more easily at the BaNaNaS then they would find them here at Simuscape.

There's also a very big difference between my work and most other artists work regarding TTDLX, as I'm probably one of few - if not the only one currently - having my own site were development of custom files are being worked on, and it's only perfectly natural - and above all logical - that these files are also available in the very same spot, namely here at Simuscape. I don't want to have my files scattered everywhere with no control as far as updating and other changes concerns. Having them here on Simuscape makes everything simple and easy and at the same time convenient for me as a graphics artist.

It's also an argument about the loss of files should Simuscape for any reason go offline for a longer period of time or close down, but I can ensure everyone that steps has been taken to prevent files from vanishing in such cases. And what does say that BaNaNaS is a more safe place in that regards?

My stand is - and you may not have to agree at all;

INFRA-files, both new and old, is to be available inside the Downloads section here at Simuscape only. The site exists and is the base of my custom files work and developments, and this also gives me full control of my own files, and above all it makes it convenient for me to update and make other changes to existing files. People interested in using INFRA-files will know that they're available right here and have full access upon registration and agreeing on the rules posted in the Welcome Center, (which requires a first post as an acceptance), And those who doesn't have a clue about INFRA will either find out through other peoples in-game screens posted anywhere online, or either not knowing about them at all. It's not a concern of mine whether INFRA is recognized to a wider audience or not, based on the arguments I placed earlier in this post - especially as Simuscape isn't a commercial site or in any other way some sort of a business . But what's important to me though is that my files are handled in a way I see fit my personal preferences and reflects my view of maintenance.

It should also be noted that I have brought forward some suggestions that, if implemented, would change things quite in the opposite direction;

A) Firstly the fact that an artists privilege is subverted by the absence of a delete button, needs to be changed. As an artist I may have my own reasons for removing files, whether it's because they're obsolete or something else. And I'm sure, chosing such an action - as rare as it may be - could possibly be arranged for in a way so that OTTD players attempting a multiplayer game or a saved game, where a file has been removed, is reached by a message - perhaps from within game?

B) Secondly, I'm not a fan of the way the BaNaNaS is organized. Entering the site as a newcomer gives you a long list of various .grf's uploaded and available to a player. If you have no idea what you're looking for, you're forced to download just about everything. I'd like to see a better system where artists can present their files in a more proper manner with images, descriptions and links to development sites. Enforcing something like this is hardly a difficult task, and is a small price to pay - if any - considering the benefits.

And more importantly, newcomers with little or no knowledge of the game or files available, will most likely want to have access to some information prior to downloading them.

I've said that if these conditions are fulfilled I'd be happy to upload files not only here at Simuscape, but also on the BaNaNaS.

My point of view for what it's worth! Feel free to voice your own opinion on the matter... I can assure you, this won't be locked that easily!

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Simuscape - A world of its own;
SimuTalk | Visual Studio | INFRA Diary

INFRA - Chose Your Destination;
INFRA Projects | INFRA Downloads

Well, since you asked for opinions...

I think andythenorth raised a good point in the previous discussion with regards to licensing. Your works so far are released under a CC-BY-NC-ND v3.0 licence (your choice), and amongst other things this licence allows people to share (i.e. distribute) your work. You can't just decide to ignore that and impose your own conditions, so if that's not how you want to do things then you really need to rethink the licence. With regard to the files you have already uploaded to BaNaNaS, you should know that by doing so you granted certain rights to the OTTD team (see http://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/tos/), and again the terms of the licence apply to those grfs with regard to distribution.

Generally speaking though, I'm not really sure why you want such a strict control over the distribution of your work. Sure, I get that you want to keep all your downloads in one place, but once they're out there then there's not much you can do about it. You can ask people not to but that's about it, and you're only relying on their honesty. Would you know for example if people were posting your files on the Russian or German forums? Would it really matter if they were? It's not something you can realistically enforce or police, and IMO it's not worth bothering about. I expect most people would have the sense to come straight to the source anyway when looking for your downloads or updates.

Finally, I've already commented on your apparent misconceptions regarding BaNaNaS and how it's supposed to work, but I'm not sure if you really get my point. You've said several times that you don't see how new users would find your files any easier on BaNaNaS, but I think that just shows your unfamiliarity with how things are these days. New users will be OTTD users, and they will generally expect to download things from the game rather than seeking them out on obscure websites that require registration. I'm not trying to convert you, but if you've never used OTTD before then you might find it beneficial to download it and give it a go. If nothing else it might give you a better appreciation of how certain things work, and a different perspective on some issues.

Hopefully that all came across in the constructive manner I intended!

I sure did!

I can't really argue and will not argue with Andy about his point. It's a valid point indeed seeing as I have chosen the license for my custom files. However, as I may not have control over the fact that some people may find it fun to download a file, only to upload it elsewhere for whatever reasons, I can at least provide a setting of rules in addition for the sake of the intentions with the Download section here at Simuscape. And hopefully people will abide by them, making my intentions clear when it comes to updates, taking care of obsolete files, and so on in the future. After all, what people will see in terms of licenses, is what's presented when activating a downloaded file. Not my Simuscape rules as they're mostly there for the silliness of it... And this has also been properly explained in the very same section...

But in the end I can't obviously control in what way people will handle my files as far as re-distributing concerns. Only ask for common sense and understanding. That's it!

As for OTTD, I'm the first to admit that I'm not familiar with how it works when it comes to the in-game downloader feature. Only what has been told for me by OTTD-users. However, even though new users may prefer to make use of this particular feature, Im also convinced that most of them would prefer some descent information before downloading anything at all. And this is the reason as to why I have changed my approach towards the BaNaNaS. The two conditions are something I feel is a very tiny cost to pay considering the benefits that comes with it. And apparantly this is something that I'm not the only artist requesting for a better file handling.

In short, I have no objections what so ever to also upload my files on a continuous bases to the BaNaNaS, following these conditions are met. Still, I'm sure the arguments from devs at OTTD will most likely be about impossibilities and what not - all of it pure nonsence though as this is not something that requires a tremendous amount of work.

And as far as the previously uploaded files to the BaNaNaS concerns, I was well aware of the conditions. I was not, however, aware that I also gave up control of my own files seeing as it turned out I didn't have an option to remove uploaded files later on - something I discovered only these last couple of days, and which I also explained in my e-mail to OpenTTD!

Had I known about it during the time of upload, I would have aborted the entire process. I didn't check this out since I had no reasons imagine this was an implemented feature - or downside if you prefer...



Absolutely! You could even have taken it some further steps higher... I'm not afraid to debate stuff... Why else is there forums?

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Simuscape - A world of its own;
SimuTalk | Visual Studio | INFRA Diary

INFRA - Chose Your Destination;
INFRA Projects | INFRA Downloads

Bananas needs to be restructured completely and behave decently to its content.

Since players will need those grfs you have already uploaded there for custom scenarios I do not think it is appropriate to remove them.
As they will become obsolete (I hope soon) and the case is similar with other grfs in bananas, bananas should be restructured to mark such grfs as OBSOLETE. Download should by allowed only on demand from a scenario and with extra action for registered users of bananas.

Quast: Do you now see what I was expecting to happen to that thread in tt-forums?

SAC: Forget about it. It doesn't help anyone to argue endlessly about such matters. It is a major sidetrack. That time could be used more productively. No new artwork today...

I think it is really sad that discussions about a grf should go about how it is available. Also I think it is very sad that a discussion like that leads to a thread to be closed.

Some of the opinions I have have already been posted above, but at least here you get a chance to express your agreement with them! So sorry for the repeat, I'll try to keep it short.

It is in my opinion always up to the artist where the work is available from. Nobody gets payed here, it is all voluntary. And therefor nobody can demand where work should be available from or if work should even be published at all!! I think we should all be grateful to people who are creating stuff and are willing to share that with others to make the gameplay even more exciting as it already is.

End of message, back to photoshop and happily drawing again!

To reach an end to this entire issue, I've been discussing this matter with some of the members of our Artists Guild, and we've reached the following decision;

The two currently uploaded files on BaNaNaS, (stolen trees and test trees), will remain as is, simply because removing them may cause some saved games or scenarios to become corrupted if deleted from the in-game downloader system. This is the situation according to experienced OTTD-players, and since I personally don't use OTTD myself at this point, I'll have to take their word for it!

I have suggested in an e-mail response to both Owen and Planetmaker to at least arrange for a name change of these two remaining files. This is to make it somewhat easier for a user to find out about the origin, and possible have an easier task finding updates and so on, for as long as the current BaNaNaS remains badly structured.

Included in this decision is the fact that no other files from the INFRA set will be uploaded to the BaNaNaS for the time being - as a result of the way the BaNaNaS is structured. However, in the same response to Owen and Planetmaker we've suggested two significant changes in order to open up for a future upload of INFRA files;

A) Currently an artists privilege is subverted by the absence of a delete button. To overcome this problem a "delete"-button needs to be implemented.

Comments;

It's no doubt that users using saved games or scenarios including certain .grf's, will face a situation where these particular games may become corrupted or not working correct as a result of .grf's being deleted from the BaNaNaS. However, it's beyond reasonable doubts that this issue can't be prevented by implementing a warning message appearing when and if a player is attempting to play an affected saved game/scenario. This warning message could possibly include a link back to, for instance, the artists site of origin, where the deleted .grf may be obtained in order for the saved game/scenario to work. Additionally a player can also find updated .grf's and will have the option to chose whether or not to download that particular "missing" .grf, or simply make the choice to use an updated .grf in a different game.

B) The BaNaNaS as it stands today is badly disorganized. It lacks proper information structures, and should be extented to also include a more sufficient way for a user to find out more about a specific .grf.

Comments;

Even though it's clear that users of OTTD has an in-game downloader system where they can easily obtain files for their games, it doesn't provide more specific information about each single file available for a game. It's also clear that some players prefer to browse the binary download page in order to obtain their desired files, both experienced players and newcomers. For this reason the BaNaNaS needs a significantly improved system as far as file information concerns, possibly in the same manner as is the case with GRF Crawler, (images, different .grf versions available, links etc.). This is benefitial both for the artist behind certain work, and for a player to learn more about specific .grf's - as an addition to the information provided through the current in-game downloader system in OTTD.

With this decision it's our hope that the entire BaNaNaS vs. INFRA issue can be put aside - at least for the time being.

//Edit to add;

A response from Rubidium to the recently sent e-mail as mentioned above has been received. In short he has decided to delete the two currently uploaded files on the BaNaNaS, rather than to have them stay in position as offered for the sake of OTTD-users convinience.

This means that some OTTD saved games/scenarios/multiplayer games may not work properly, something which is out of my control. These two files will however be available in our Downloads section sometime this weekend for those in need of them. Additionally Rubidium informs that an artists privilege will never be a concern of OTTD devs, and as such the proposed suggestions about implementing the requested features will be completely ignored.

Consequently this means that no old, nor any new INFRA-files will be uploaded and available through the BaNaNaS in the future, as proposed in the e-mail sent out earlier. But users will be able to obtain these files from within our Downloads section instead.

Accordingly there will be a change as far as the Downloads section regards, meaning it'll be accessible also to non-registered users as a "Read-only". This will allow for visitors to determine which files are available on Simuscape, thus giving them an option to decide whether to register or not in order to continue with an actual download of our content.

With this response from Rubidium I consider this entire issue to have been solved, although perhaps not in the most descent and convenient way of course. But again, the un-willingness of OTTD devs. to meet up at least halfway through is a problem that lies with them, not me, nor this website. After all, there are other artists within the TTDLX-community who has requested similar conditions, so this isn't something new...

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Simuscape - A world of its own;
SimuTalk | Visual Studio | INFRA Diary

INFRA - Chose Your Destination;
INFRA Projects | INFRA Downloads

The register to download idea is implemented in other forums too. I think it is the best solution.

I believe so too! The idea was brought up by Owen over at TT-forums, but I have yet some other ideas to implement as away to sort of "open up" this place...

_________________


Simuscape - A world of its own;
SimuTalk | Visual Studio | INFRA Diary

INFRA - Chose Your Destination;
INFRA Projects | INFRA Downloads

If that is the case, then the OTT-Game is at fault and should cater properly for such GRFs. Your trees only replace sprites in the base graphics set. If the GRF isn't around, nothing happens except the 'original' trees show up again.

Missing GRFs cause rarely a problem. There are fallback situations. A well developed building set will not be a problem if removed, because the coder defines a fallback to cater for this. Any graphics that replaces sprites in the Base Graphics set will never cause any concerns; the 'original' sprites will show up, if the GRF is missing.

Absolutely correct.

You could advertise 'news' on the home page, giving some details about available downloads. I don't think, any player interested in your work will mind to register (most will already have done so), log in and download what they find interesting. You can also 'advertise' in the GRFCrawler Information Centre, but I wouldn't do it on tt-forum (again). Recent events have shown it is a bad idea.

True and there is nothing wrong with that.

i'm afraid i have to disagree with you there, i have seen many a site fail/stick with limited numbers because of this fact, many people do not like to have to register or whatnot to download files.

a huge advantage of the banana's system is that the content is not only available right there in the game but that it installs it as well.

the Tagged browsing also makes it exceptionally easy to find exactly what you want (in most cases, some files though have very obscure tags).

certainly before knocking the Bananas system it is worth giving it a spin.


a point to remember is that 9 times out of 10 the end user will always go for the easy route and having to register on some site purely for a selection of graphics is not the easy route, (especially if inactive accounts are removed after a period of time)

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I don't see why there should be a problem with doing it again, just make it clear(er) from the outset that the grfs are available from Simuscape only and that there won't be a BaNaNaS upload. Sure, you might get one or two people who ask anyway, but it's best not to feed the fire by getting drawn into a debate on the issue.

Late to the party, but I'm throwing my bits into the ring anyhow!

License: I have no problem with SAC offering her files only from Simuscape, and making it so that they can only be distributed from Simuscape. As was mentioned, though, the license needs to reflect this. If doing so doesn't fit the current CC license, then find another license. Or, possibly even better, create your own. You may not be able to stop people from violating the license, but having a license which dictates your terms will give you the power that you need to pull those downloads, if you need it.

Site registration: As SAC has mentioned, she's not releasing this work because she's serving the public, but because she's serving her own needs and she's simply letting the public benefit. I wouldn't worry about how many people are turned off by not wanting to deal with the hassle of registering. They'll get over it, these files are not essential for life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness.

Topics on tt-forums.net: I'd suggest just setting up an "INFRA Releases" thread and posting to that and being done with it. Just because people post silly things to it doesn't mean you have to reply to them, or even acknowledge it. Yep, it's cold, but if people can't understand plain [insert your language of choice here], then that's on them.

Uploading to BaNaNaS: While it would be gracious of SAC to consider this, given the fact that she doesn't even use OpenTTD, I don't see why she'd even be concerned with releasing through BaNaNaS. It doesn't currently benefit her at all. I agree that it's not organized at all, but the fact that more recent editions of OpenTTD can now pull info from the "readme" files means more information can be included about a NewGRF, what it does, and where to obtain it from.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

Those ones who are really interested in the 'product' will go at any length do get it. Large download counts say absolutely nothing about the popularity of the 'product'.

I can speak from experience. Some of my GRFs are for the few players (less than a handful) who have the DOS version of TTDLX. But these downloads have huge counts, but the files benefit only a few. Now, I am absolutely sure there are players, who download just about everything, that comes their way even if it is absolutely useless to them. Having to register to download may lead to lower download counts, but it means nothing.

Yes, it does, but the majority of players simply click all the boxes, download the lot without the knowledge what each GRF actually does and then never use them.

I have given it a spin, in fact, just yesterday and I am very disappointed.

The repercussions are still verberating through the tt-forum and IRC and it isn't pretty, it is actually very dusgusting and disrespectful, especially towards all those artists and codeers that put in countless hours of their time ...

Do they? How do you know what "the majority of players" do?


I don't know about IRC, but I've not seen any more talk on the forums. I don't even think the download topic needed locking, things weren't that heated IMO.

I see no reason to refrain from registering to a reputable forum to download. On the contrary I have many reasons to refrain from registering in questionable content forums and those that impose crazy rules (you have to upload first number x files, you have to answer a quiz to register, ...)

Let me start by saying that since i am not an artist nor a coder, my point of view is more of the "lazy player" and/or end-product user

For me personally BaNaNaS is not a bad system in total, it just lacks some extra features etc. BaNaNaS is a way to make additional content for the game downloadable via the game. this is not only a proper way to get the new players who never tried it learn about what the newGRF's do and acces scenario's and other stuff, but also a way to central all the content in 1 place, without having to use forum addons like the old GRF_crawler to find the released(in any form) grf's

the only flaws in the system for me are the following :

1) inability to have multiple versions under the same name (ofc coming from same author/artist, and not crashing the compatibility as mentioned by planetmaker)
2) inability to add better credits & credentials. maybe even add a filter for the licence-types. only allow downloading of certain licence-typed content without reading/accepting some terms&agreements (like alot of the readme's from Michael Blunk etc) (protip: most ppl dont even read them, they just want to play with it and in best case they remember the artist
3) inability for authors to have content removed / blocked out. (this means that if you download a scenario & its depending on the removed/blocked content, it will be flagged as well... (shouldnt be hard to add a check for that?????)

but in general it really helps out the players. it saves you alot of website/googling to get the grf file you want. (im still annoyed by Romazoon who had the magical ability to always get a version of a newGRF that was not on BaNaNa's and conflicted with it

Lazy players point of view or not, it's still quite interesting to learn how each and everyone of you view the in-game downloader system in OTTD. As mentioned I'm not an OTTD-player and haven't got the experience myself, only the immediate contact with the BaNaNaS when visiting the location itself. And that's not impressive from an artists point of view.



Unfortunately OzTrans is completely right here, and I most certainly agree being an artist myself regarding this behavior. It's completely out of respect to behave in such manners when behind other "walls" than thd forums one - especially as a vast majority of them shows a totally different "face" in public...





This one made me laugh though... Unfortunately because it's soo true... soo true...

_________________


Simuscape - A world of its own;
SimuTalk | Visual Studio | INFRA Diary

INFRA - Chose Your Destination;
INFRA Projects | INFRA Downloads

So, SAC, have you downloaded OTTD and tried to use Bananas directly from it yet? If not, then it would definitely help get a better idea of OTTD-players' viewpoints.
Here's a basic screenshot (attached) of Bananas' in-game view - still, it is far better to actually use the thing rather than just stare at some pixels.

Unfortunately I haven't! But only these couple of days I've learned a lot more about this system than I knew before - and that's a good thing.

However, as mentioned before; OTTD devs. decides what's best for you OTTD-players from their point of views when it comes to the structure of BaNaNaS itself, and for as long as it remains I'm afraid I won't upload any files there. And the same decision is passed down by several other artists as well...

And thanks for visualizing this...

_________________


Simuscape - A world of its own;
SimuTalk | Visual Studio | INFRA Diary

INFRA - Chose Your Destination;
INFRA Projects | INFRA Downloads

what are your complaints regarding the Bananas system then?? maybe if you presented constructive ideas the developers may take a look and see, after all the worst they can do is say "no" to them.

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