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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 00:42 
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SAC wrote:
Or do people today completely lack morals?


All people? No, I don't think so. :) Some people who like to play transport games might lack morals? Probably, at least for content which is free, and which in their opinion does no harm to share. I don't think a lot of players would see what is wrong about sticking free grfs on their file upload site or ftp or whatever. Yet it does cause harm to those who don't want their work distributed on random sites, and who are very emotionally invested in controlling where their work goes.

Meanwhile no-one in this community is ever going to sue anyone else (unless something bonkers happens), so maybe licensing is just a silly distraction. Certainly it's boring to most people. But then when unwanted sharing happens, that does seem to be a cause of boring drama.

BTW, I'm not trying to tell you to do a certain thing, or not. I'm not even sure quite what my point is or why I keep posting this :)

But I guess I wondered if there are new hassles lying in the future due to the SL13 license, and what is allowed and what is not, and maybe it is better to think about that now, as you are starting to release grfs which lots of players will want to use.

Trying to figure out exactly what the license means will be much harder in the middle of some dispute (which I would predict is likely to be between SL13 users and the operators of some random upload site who just infringe and don't care). Licensing will be just as boring then, but more dramatic.

Ultimately though, there's no prevention that a license will give against people who rip you off unless you start getting legal, which might be a boring route too. :|

This is really no longer anything all to do with Bananas, therefore totally off topic in this thread. ;)


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 00:47 
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Coda: I am not trying to persuade you to a different license, we agree to disagree on certain aims :) But the reason I like GPL is that it guarantees to other people that they can reuse my work (if they comply with the terms). This suits my ego, which is not small. I like the idea that my work will have a life beyond what I intended for it, and if sometimes I disagree entirely with how it has been adapted, I have to suck it up ;)


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 00:52 
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Yes, well... I will most likely have a closer look at that SL13 and perhaps give it a needed update... :)

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 00:54 
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I'm willing to bet a tidy sum (tidy because 0 is such a simple number and that's all I can afford :roll: ) that only a select few really bother to read the license, but it is exceedingly fun watching that select few having hissy and apoplectic fits. :twisted:
I think your license is fine as is and its only there in case you need to exercise it sometime in the future.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 01:25 
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No argument with Wally. I just think (for example) Pikka's license has the benefit of being simpler. Simpler is better: less ambiguity, less room for future arguments / debates / nitpicking blah blah.

I hope Pikka doesn't mind me posting it as an example:
Code:
All rights reserved.  Distribution or modification without permission prohibited.  Contact PikkaBird via private message or forum thread at http://www.tt-forums.net/


Up to you, I have no axe to grind. When I see something like this, I just poke at it, it's a bad habit, like picking scabs. I should go do something else. :roll:


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 01:28 
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Wally wrote:
I think your license is fine as is and its only there in case you need to exercise it sometime in the future.


I was perhaps thinking of at least adjusting it according to Andythenorths' example regarding bug testings and so on...
andythenorth wrote:
When I see something like this, I just poke at it, it's a bad habit, like picking scabs. I should go do something else. :roll:


:lol:

I've never seen someone aplogizing for himself soo many times... It's okey Andy... this is a forum, and the whole point is to post... :P

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 01:51 
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andythenorth wrote:
... I don't think a lot of players would see what is wrong about sticking free grfs on their file upload site or ftp or whatever. Yet it does cause harm to those who don't want their work distributed on random sites, and who are very emotionally invested in controlling where their work goes. ...
There is a very good reason why this is so ... there are so many really outdated graphic files of mine hosted everywhere. Once outdated, they are not removed and therefore cause confusion. That is why, I want to have full control where my work is hosted. Currently it is a mess ...

Once players realise where the genuine GRFs are hosted, and that there is just one single place, they have certainty where to find the most up to date versions ...

Quote:
... I wondered if there are new hassles lying in the future due to the SL13 license, and what is allowed and what is not, and maybe it is better to think about that now, as you are starting to release grfs which lots of players will want to use.
That license (and also my license) is intended to be simple and straight forward. Basically, it says you do not modify the work and you do not host it anywhere else. You can always ask for permission to use parts of it.

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... But the reason I like GPL is that it guarantees to other people that they can reuse my work ...
If that is fine with you, why not. You are an artist and many artists allow their graphics to be used freely. I'm a coder, and I don't like to see CanRail modified to have all trains travelling at 32'000 mph and then release that freely.

wallyweb wrote:
Supercheese wrote:
Note that it's not my patch, I just compiled the executable.
... That patch was made with OTTD nightly r25048. The current nightly is r25049 which is not significant as it merely fixes a couple of translations, but what happens if something significant is added to trunk (nightly, RC or stable) and CBH is not in yet? ...
Then, you need the patch applied again to the most recent version. In my opinion, patches should only be applied to stable releases; thus reapplying need not happen too frequently.

SAC wrote:
Wally wrote:
I think your license is fine as is and its only there in case you need to exercise it sometime in the future.
I was perhaps thinking of at least adjusting it according to Andythenorths' example regarding bug testings and so on...
I don't think that is necessary. Should a player have to supply a GRF (available publicly somewhere anyway) for bugtesting, then nobody will mind. Seeking permission for that is always an option.

Wallyweb, my tester, has occassionally asked to pass on some of my GRFs to OpenTTD developers for fault finding. If it was a 'not yet released' GRF, the answer would be no, otherwise there would be no problem.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 09:28 
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OzTrans wrote:
You are an artist and many artists allow their graphics to be used freely. I'm a coder

OK so I'll discount the 3 vehicle sets I have coded in nfo, the original FIRS nfo coding, and the rework of 3 sets in nml, including a build framework that takes a web-editable config file and generates a set from it, a procedural graphics generator that can draw trucks from a config file, and the patches I have in nml and ottd, also the 25 years I've been working with software and games, both closed and open source, graphics, code, marketing and production. I'll just accept your point of view, because arguing is boring. :)

But I do think the arbitrary division of people into 'artists' and 'coders' is remarkably unhelpful, and I refuse to participate in that. :roll:

Way off-topic, sorry.


Last edited by andythenorth on 28 Feb 2013, 09:53, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 09:38 
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andythenorth wrote:
Trying to figure out exactly what the license means will be much harder in the middle of some dispute (which I would predict is likely to be between SL13 users and the operators of some random upload site who just infringe and don't care). Licensing will be just as boring then, but more dramatic.

Ultimately though, there's no prevention that a license will give against people who rip you off unless you start getting legal, which might be a boring route too. :|


That is absolutely true... and I believe this goes for all of us in this community overall, one can only do so much but in the end it's entirely dependable upon the community to act responsible and ensure that peoples work is handled properly and according to specific terms of use...

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 13:47 
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andythenorth wrote:
...
I was wondering how you were able to get all your stuff together in such short order. :bowing:
andythenorth wrote:
Way off-topic, sorry.
Not really. It's the topic that is way off of us. :mrgreen:
This is an evolving subject so I think we are safe from a forcible eviction by the management. 8-)
Quote:
But I do think the arbitrary division of people into 'artists' and 'coders' is remarkably unhelpful
I tend to agree. I myself do a bit of each (I am neither artist nor coder. I abuse both equally well). There are indeed some who chose to specialize and that is good too. I suspect that licensing philosophies vary in direct proportion to the number of licensing philosophers. Irregardless, it all does remain a fun topic for cocktail receptions and bar crawls and the occasional visit to Hyde Park. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2013, 20:30 
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wallyweb wrote:
This is an evolving subject so I think we are safe from a forcible eviction by the management.
As I see it, BaNaNaS and licensing is closely related so no, you don't need to worry about warnings, locked threads or whatever actions me or 'the dragon' could do. ;)

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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2013, 11:06 
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OzTrans wrote:
andythenorth wrote:
... I don't think a lot of players would see what is wrong about sticking free grfs on their file upload site or ftp or whatever. Yet it does cause harm to those who don't want their work distributed on random sites, and who are very emotionally invested in controlling where their work goes. ...
There is a very good reason why this is so ... there are so many really outdated graphic files of mine hosted everywhere. Once outdated, they are not removed and therefore cause confusion. That is why, I want to have full control where my work is hosted. Currently it is a mess ...

Once players realise where the genuine GRFs are hosted, and that there is just one single place, they have certainty where to find the most up to date versions ...


This is the strongest suit of BaNaNaS. If a player has a savegame or scenario that is using one of your NewGRFs, but they don't have it, they can pull the latest version that is compatible with their copy of OpenTTD.


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2013, 12:03 
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Not to mention that no one will ever see the old versions at all except when they are specifically required.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2013, 04:03 
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andythenorth wrote:
... Way off-topic, sorry. ...
Not quite, we have discussed licenses and why you prefer GPL over anything else. I, for one, do not believe in GPL.

Anyway, there is another thing, I would like to mention ... Has ever anybody thought about BaNaNaS being a bad implementation of a good feature and why some of us do not want to use it ?

The word 'spam' was in the news lately about my brilliant feature, the iGRF. That Online Content Downloader is nothing but a spam merchant itself. Imagine Google (or one of his mates) providing you with search results before you have given it something to search for.

When you click 'Online Content' you will be provided with a list of Heightmaps, Scenarios, AIs, NewGRFs etc. Now, if my lonely iGRF was spam then that list is even more spam.

When clicking on 'Online Content', I would like to see an empty list. Then, I would like to be taken through a question and answer session to find something interesting to play with. I could start with Industry GRF, I may get 2 lonely options FIRS and ECS. I select FIRS, then it is on to transportation GRFs. For each option of Rail, Road, Sea and Air, I would like to see only GRFs that are compatible with my selected industry option. I make my selection(s). After that, I would like to see compatible Town/City GRFs. And so it goes ...

For the most preferred solution, I'd like to see a selection of theme packs. I select the 'Canadian Theme Pack', as a result I get a list of GRFs that meet that criteria. It tells me that I have already two of the GRFs and that I require another 7 GRFs. I download them and they will be configured automatically and I will only have to click 'Play'.

I only know one theme pack, it is called the Canadian Theme Pack, and it is still very much work in progress. There is one set of GRFs that comes close to be a theme pack, the Japanese one. The rest just spams players to download them without actually knowing what they do.

That is one reason why I don't like BaNaNaS ...

Further, when uploading, authors can enter 'tags' for searching by players. It also says, you should be reusing already existing tags. But, where on earth is that list of already existing tags ? Many of those GRF authors that have uploaded their work have given very little thoughts about tags.

There should be automatic tags, like type, author, feature too; e.g. it is not possible to look up a GRF to find the author of it.

The whole system is just very messy and I don't like to be part of it. Maybe one day, when it has been re-invented, I may change my mind ...

kamnet wrote:
This is the strongest suit of BaNaNaS. If a player has a savegame or scenario that is using one of your NewGRFs, but they don't have it, ...
But, why have they lost it ? If they have the save game, they should still have the GRFs. If they lost it, they can just ask me for a backcopy ...


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2013, 08:52 
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OzTrans wrote:
kamnet wrote:
This is the strongest suit of BaNaNaS. If a player has a savegame or scenario that is using one of your NewGRFs, but they don't have it, ...
But, why have they lost it ? If they have the save game, they should still have the GRFs. If they lost it, they can just ask me for a backcopy ...


You're assuming that they had it to begin with. Savegames and scenarios are never uploaded with all of the NewGRFs it uses. In the past, those who upload would have been generous if they posted a link to all the files they used. These days, many of them just assume the content is already on BaNaNaS. But there's infinite number of reasons why a user might have a samegame or scenario file but not the NewGRF. None of the reasons why, though, are material. It doesn't change the fact that they have a .sav or .scn that they want to play, but cannot because a .grf is missing. Also keep in mind that recent versions of OpenTTD no longer allow you to remove or change NewGRFs in .sav or .scn files without enabling the Scenario Editor, and once you do that the devs are NOT going to help you if there's a problem in your game later on.

Sure, they can just ask you for an old copy. If you're around, that is. Maybe you'll get back to them within the few hours they have available to play a session? Maybe you're out of town for the day? Maybe you're gone on vacation for two weeks? Maybe you went on vacation to Mooselandia and got eaten by a bear you met on the Internet? BaNaNaS eliminates you having to be around to answer requests, and provides instant gratification to the players who wish to play it.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2013, 18:42 
OzTrans wrote:
...


I am afraid such a tree as you suggest is basically impossible to create. You would have to set compatibilities for all newGRFs with all other newGRFs which would result in gigantic mess without a doubt. Often the author does not even know if his newGRF is compatible with newGRF xyz simply because he does not know it, too. Who then should fill those information? Also, who would actually take their time to fill all that info?

Not to mention that all the tags and buttons would be picked by ... who? What would be the categories?
Also for "theme" newGRFs, they usually are easily findable by their common tag/string. For example if you type Japan, you probably get all japan-themed newGRFs - so I do not see how would a button help in that regard, except making it necessary for some people to pick and create those buttons.

Also there are many newGRFs which do multiple things at once, like adding trains, railtypes and RVs, industries+something else, those would fall into multiple categories? Either way I think this system of more separation is not a fortunate idea also because you dont have a "sequence" in which you set your newGRF settings. You just throw newGRFs in.
What is compatible with what is question for readmes/newGRF description.


Besides, if it is a problem that there are multiple newGRFs of one theme, why not make one newGRF which does everything in one, eventually possible to disable parts by parameters? It gets rid of your distribution problems and still allows for choice by players.

Your iGRF was declared spam because it does not provide any content to the Bananas and is only a link.

The tags are nothing but just additional things you can make your newGRF findable by, like for example my train set includes a popular Slug train, so it has a tag "slug". Having to re-use any other tags is probably just an outdated string on Bananas, but it has no meaning.
Though perhaps the intention of such unified tags was to make content fit into caregories.

By the way I believe that the filter is able to go through newGRF name, and also newGRF description. So if you mention authors, describe the newGRF, or whatever in the description, the filter will also find those words, so your assumption of "hard to find the author" on Bananas is not too correct either. Not to mention that you can click on the "website", "changelog" or "readme" right from the game.

I do not see how is Bananas messy. It does things absolutely simply, no conditions, no bla bla. Only one version is visible, rest is not, done. (but available on-demand from savegames obviously) Additional things like tags, availability to certain openttd versions or whatever else, is just things you can set but dont need/have to.


By the way, do you really send everyone all files with sending someone a single savegame? And note that this is absolutely not just about savegames, but also about servers. Should every server be forced to have a website you can visit, and download all currently used newGRFs from there - or even worse, making the player google every separate newGRF, write to its author to obtain the version on the server (who might respond but also might not) and then finally join the game?


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013, 09:37 
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kamnet and V453000 wrote:
...
You have very good points, but they all cannot make me using the Content Up/Downloader as an author. To me the entire system is not up to scratch, we just have to agree to disagree on this matter. Maybe one day ... but don't hold your breath ... I might just be using it, but definitely not with my development work ...

Now, I must get back to work ... there are a few more releases to be finalised ...


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013, 10:49 
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I'm not in favor of forcing anybody to use anything at all. At the very least, though, with the recent addition of being able to search GRFCrawler from within the game, I think that would be a fine resource to continue using.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013, 12:09 
Oh by any means I am not trying to force you to do anything, while admittedly I do think it would be nice if you accepted such a solution, I honestly do not really care too much what the result is.

But when reading your thoughts it leads me to believe that you have a lot of desillusions about BaNaNaS which are not entirely true. Which obviously causes me to respond in the way I did.
Quite honestly, we can all see that we discussed this topic a lot already, but your last post surprised me so much that I had to respond.

Whether you use the service or not is up to you; you are not doing it for me but for the players, and for yourself too in fact (no work with distribution, version controlling, you might get more bug reports from people using multiplayer, ...)

As an author myself I can only say that I think using Bananas is absolutely key if you want the newGRF to be "alive" and let people use it properly - for no harm on your side, thus I can strongly recommend it.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2013, 12:26 
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The one downside of BaNaNaS is that it insists that the author give up one aspect of his/her copyright - the right to request the destruction of his works. The author does not have to cite any reason(s). As silly as those reasons may seem to us, those reasons are definitely valid to the author and really should be respected. In that one single aspect, the BaNaNaS ToS is a contract that supersedes the author's copyright and can only be avoided by not subscribing to it.

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