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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 18:30 
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In the light of a discussion that seems to arise from one time to another, some matters needs to be clarified to avoid the spreading of what may be interpreted as the "truth" amongst some end users. I'm referring to the use of BaNaNaS and the ingame content downloader system for OpenTTD.

As an artist I take pride in my own graphics work, and this is something I have always done ever since I started to contribute when committing myself to online game communities many years ago. I do not perform my artistic work for the sake of some generousity towards a public audience to obtain my work and use it as see fit. I do it for the sake of my own personal game-play enhancement. The ability to share also to a public audience is merely a side-effect if you wish, and I'm happy to be able to do so as well. However, as an artist I also care about the files I make available for public usage - at all times. This means that I always reserve the right to maintain my files in a manner that guarantees top quality in terms of functionality, visuality, and usability. This has never been an issue before, but with BaNaNaS and the ingame content downloader system in mind, things have changed. At least for me as an artist and the work I care to publish publically.

Uploading to the BaNaNaS means that I can't uphold my long term ambitions of maintaining my artistic work according to the above mentioned. To some artists this isn't a big deal at all, but to me it is. I do not wish to face a situation where I simply hand over files and give up the control of them. My pride in my work doesn't limit itself to the actual artistic work, but also to the continuous usage of each separate file. In the way the BaNaNaS currently is built up I am unfortunately unable to do so. And that is why I personally have chosen NOT TO upload any of my artistic work to the BaNaNaS for an easy to use ingame content downloader system to ensure you have the ability to use them in your games. You can obviously still use them, but in order to do so you need to visit the Downloads Library here at Simuscape, located at the lower part of our forum. Nothing strange to it all, in fact a system that is widely spread in most gaming communities.

It is also very important to realize that I personally have absolutely nothing against the BaNaNaS nor the ingame content downloader system! None what so ever - despite what might be addressed on other online sources out there. I honestly believe that the BaNaNaS and the ingame content downloader system is a brilliant feature at what it does. But it simply doesn't fit my own purposes, my own intentions, nor my own ambitions. As simple as that! And that's what's really to it!
I am aware that this community at large do host members that for various reasons refuses to take this in, to understand, and to accept. But just because of this, their habit of spreading their "truth" doesn't make it a truth! It is rather you who comes across such submitted views on various online sources that possess the ability to interpret them as a truth or not!

I hope this statement clear things up on my behalf! And I hope you understand my reasons and accept them as my personal choice!


/SAC

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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 21:33 
But what exactly is the control you are missing? I can only think of two things which bananas does not allow;

Firstly deleting files - obviously, for the sake of compatibility with older saves, versions, everything. And why would you delete anything from anywhere anyway?
But even if you require that, you can always update your newGRF with a blank newGRF with the same ID, people can only download the newest version.

Secondly, Bananas does not handle OpenTTD version requirements perfectly.
For example my train set (NUTS Unrealistic Train Set) is incompatible with older versions of OpenTTD such as 1.2.3, where at the moment there is 1.3.0 beta1/beta2/RC1.
Therefore the train set is invisible on Bananas to people with 1.2.3 - they cannot even download the latest compatible version. But then, people should update OpenTTD and I personally am happy that it motivates people to use test stable versions.

Publish publically, what can be more public than automatic content downloader which has viewable readme, changelog and can link to for example the wiki of the newGRF?

I mean what is technically what you are missing?


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PostPosted: 22 Feb 2013, 21:50 
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It's simply a matter of me preferring to have only one file in circulation, the latest updated one! Those who download a file of mine from our Downloads Library - which later on is updated - will simply, for the sake of being able to reload an older saved game, scenario, or whatever, ensure it always stays on their hard drives...

I have no interest in having to deal with older versions and bother myself with questions about this and that, and the best way to avoid that is to ensure only the latest version is in a public circulation. This is the approach I've chosen for my artistic work, as mentioned previously, and the ones interested in using my files will know where to get them! There is no self-preservation in providing files to a community from my point of view. The ability to allow for others to use them is just a result of me providing them here at Simuscape.

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 01:02 
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Out of interest, if a player reported a bug to me (might be a bug in my grf, someone else's grf, or in ottd, no way to tell until it's tested...), and the savegame required an older version of one of your grfs, would you be ok with them distributing it to me? And if so, would it matter if they did so by pm, or via a public forum?


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 01:05 
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I have no problems ensuring that my file is made available for the sake of bug testings... if it should be the case and the file is provided via pm, I have no objections what so ever! My stand in this matter isn't about this at all! :)

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 01:41 
I understand that you would like to make only the latest version in circulation, but why do you even need to care about that, if someone tells me a bug or problem with older version I just tell him to update, and done.
Especially if your publishing is just a side effect (which is exactly for me too by the way), you dont guarantee anything to anyone, you dont need to support the old files; on bananas people see only latest version anyway.
In fact as andythenorth hints, you get rid of people annoying you that they for reason X need an old version, because they can just get it themselves.

Side note: as for people updating, I am actually quite surprised that people update newGRFs which are on Bananas quite often; which I find quite surprising in compare to how many people reject testing openttd stable versions

Also, note that when you update your content, it takes time before everyone downloads it and starts using it; every such transition will result in major mess on servers for people who do not have the older version; but I guess you dont care about that. Though anything can happen and you can become unreachable ... would those old files then be just lost? With bugs, testing, compatibility, and all that in mind?


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 01:50 
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Hi!

I have not been here, or on the tt-forums lately, I just observe the change in the community here and the tt-forums. I still doesn't understand the secrecy here, why the bananas bad, or the tt-forums, something went badly here I think. :cucko:

If someone uses my Total bridges grf, then I will feel myself proud of that. Even its in the n-th third party modified version. I have never seen any usable newgrf apart from the stolen trees, or a yet another foundation thing. Just awesome, and lovely screenshots :oops: , but even the trees was "stolen" :?:

Sorry for this post, if I'm being too indecent, I have just expressed my 2 cents today night about this topic.


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 04:21 
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Please let us take care not to transfer the 'fruitless discussion' into this 'clarification' thread too.

SAC has her reasons for not uploading in BaNaNaS and explained that she has nothing against the service itself.

We should respect her choice/view regardless we agree or not (with her decision).

BTW: Greetings thgergo! :W


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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 08:25 
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V453000 wrote:
I understand that you would like to make only the latest version in circulation, but why do you even need to care about that


Isn't that quite clear? I care about my work just as a writer cares about his book or a songwriter cares about his tunes... I've been an graphics artist for many years now, and spending time within the Transport Tycoon-community creating graphics is just the latest in my "career moves" - or whatever you prefer to label it. I have find it to be most convenient to provide my files in one place, and this is a situation I have decided to stick to for many years now - and in previous communities.

This community is also the first one I've experienced providing a system, (i.e. BaNaNaS), that due to its purpose and functionality, cannot allow for an artist to uphold a control in the manner as described previously. And as such it doesn't fit me! This doesn't mean I don't want my files to be downloaded and used, on the contrary. But people will need to get them here, just as they need to get MB*s files at this place. Or OzTrans files here! As simple as that! :)

V453000 wrote:
would those old files then be just lost? With bugs, testing, compatibility, and all that in mind?


I would assume - as it has usually worked in most gaming communities - that whatever people download and find that they want to keep, they also make sure it's stored on their harddrives... If I see a file I want to use, why on earth would I let it be and return a year or two later, hoping for it to still be there?

thgergo wrote:
still doesn't understand the secrecy here


It's no secrecy here, it's just a perfect way to keep spambots out! :P

thgergo wrote:
but even the trees was "stolen" :?:


Yes, even the trees were stolen - and twice might I add! Perhaps this disrespectful behavior - amongst other things going on within this Transport Tycoon- community, compared to other communities I've been part of - have had an impact on my decision concerning the BaNaNaS.

thgergo wrote:
I have never seen any usable newgrf


There are more inside our Downloads Library! :) And more on its way might I add...


And as Athanasios says, we take proud in having a peaceful and friendly community here at Simuscape. We do not wish to transfer bad attitudes or misbehavior in general from another forum... :W

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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2013, 10:20 
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SAC wrote:
I have no problems ensuring that my file is made available for the sake of bug testings... if it should be the case and the file is provided via pm

Out of interest, does that conflict with the SL13 license terms?

If (for example) Wallyweb needed to PM me one of your grfs, and he chose to do it via tt-forums, he is (1) violating the SL13 license terms (2) exposing Owen to a DMCA takedown notice risk as a transmitter of copyright-infringing content.

BTW afaik you should be defending your content with cease-and-desist notifications first, then DMCA takedowns against the hosting provider. These are tools that will help you maintain control. Afaiak, it's important to not let any violation slip once you become aware of it, otherwise you weaken your legal case. I am not a lawyer though. Michael Blunck would be better placed to advise you on this, as he does take measures to protect his grfs in this way, and he is well versed in copyright law / licensing, especially for EU.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2013, 05:23 
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Wally is a member of the guild and our main coder. He would have a license to do so.


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2013, 15:06 
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athanasios wrote:
Wally is a member of the guild and our main coder. He would have a license to do so.

Ok that's reasonable.

Then substitute "Wallyweb" for "unknown person x". Does that change the situation?


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PostPosted: 24 Feb 2013, 18:18 
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I should say that my intentions are genuine here (because it's not always obvious when I'm stirring and when I'm not).

I find licensing interesting (weird eh?). Not very interesting, but more interesting than Diagnosis Murder or picking cheese out of my teeth. ;)

The SL13 license makes sense, but I wondered if it covered all cases nicely, or whether it has one or so edge cases which might sadness and worry in future. It doesn't need a long debate, they were just simple questions (and licensing isn't interesting enough to have a long debate about).

Also, this is nothing to do with Bananas, in retrospect I should have posted in SL13 thread.

Obviously Creative Commons licenses are not applicable when redistribution is not allowed, but there is a nice line I've borrowed from CC wikipedia page, which applies to all good licenses imho: "...protects the people who use or redistribute an author's work, so they don’t have to worry about copyright infringement, as long as they abide by the conditions the author has specified." :)


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2013, 01:08 
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andythenorth wrote:
... substitute "Wallyweb" for "unknown person x"
:o
Does unknown person x know about this?
:lol:

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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2013, 08:20 
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Good question!
Andy: I 'd by more concerned in developing new artwork and fixing bugs than the minute details of a grf license.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 01:32 
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Late reply, sorry about that, but I've been working a lot these last couple of days - in another city - and have had no chance to get online until now... But better late than never, as they say... :P

andythenorth wrote:
I should say that my intentions are genuine here (because it's not always obvious when I'm stirring and when I'm not).


Not to worry! I have no reason to believe otherwise... on the contrary... Obviously it would be nice if people could simply respect other peoples work and we could end this entire debate about licenses once and for all. But seeing as I in fact have the "stolentrees" as a good example, I seriously doubt we'll ever get there. And most likely all these "Tycoon wars" referring to BaNaNaS has probably also had an impact on my personal decisions regarding all this. That said it's also possible that I may change my position entirely - also license wise - once I can cross over to OpenTTD and begin testing my own files also there. The only thing that stands between me and OpenTTD at this point is really just the CBH-feature. And having a change to take advantage of everything OpenTTD, it may also prove that I need to adapt my license conditions accordingly.

However, it's late night here and I'm hopelessly tired, so I need to continuenthis tomorrow... :P

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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 02:28 
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SAC wrote:
The only thing that stands between me and OpenTTD at this point is really just the CBH-feature.

I've posted binaries for that: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p1068107


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 03:08 
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Since I can't edit my post:

Note that it's not my patch, I just compiled the executable.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 09:19 
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Supercheese wrote:
Note that it's not my patch, I just compiled the executable.
It's good to know that you did the executable. So many of us are really not into compiling. :bowing:
That patch was made with OTTD nightly r25048. The current nightly is r25049 which is not significant as it merely fixes a couple of translations, but what happens if something significant is added to trunk (nightly, RC or stable) and CBH is not in yet?
I guess my question really should be what is the status of that patch (I assume it is cirdans)? Have any of the OTTD devs given any indication of their impressions? It would be so much simpler to see it in trunk but I assume it is still buggy a bit.

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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2013, 11:24 
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As I see it, this whole licensing thing has really grown into excessive proportions altogether. The phenomenon - if one can call it that - is pretty much all quite new and probably reflects the fact that there is now more attention to theft and the sort of copyrighted material, which is not okey - although many still believe that the Internet is one big yummy smorgasbord where you can pick for yourself in whatever manner and then just throw the plates around regardless!

The question is, is this community significant in that sense, or do other communities also experience this excessive license circus? Ironically, it is an old game we are doing, and I guess our reconstruction of it is not quite according to the rules when the chips are down. So why this huge focus on licenses anyway? Surely it should be quite natural that you do not take someone else's material, more or less remake it, then redistribute it in your own name without consideration of the original author? Or do people today completely lack morals?

Supercheese wrote:
I've posted binaries for that: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p1068107


I'm aware of this and I'm eagerly awaiting its inclusion in OpenTTD! There are of course other features I'd like to see, but with CBH there I can at least begin to cross over and start my "career" as an OpenTTD artist... :P

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