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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012, 11:54 
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An older thread over at TT-forums, Version 2.0 - Look to the Future, originated by Wasila in early 2010 has been revived, yet again raising questions about feature requests for OTTD.

It's newcomer "Captain Rand" placing a reply about counterproductivity, and calls the entire TTDLX-community to aim for the same goal. This has of course been discussed and debated over and over again with arguments from "both sides", and most OTTD devs have simultaneously been arguing back stating that TTDP and OTTD are two different games written in two different languages. While true it's at the same time amazing that the bigger picture is refused to be acknowledged - every single time! :roll:

This isn't really a question about merging two different games into one, which we already know is impossible, but to gather resources and develop the original classic game Transport Tycoon Deluxe into one fantastic modification, giving players the ultimate in terms of personal game-play experiences. One of the most infected subjects on the matter is the TTDP-feature, Custom Bridgeheads, (CBH), and at this point not on the higher level of the OTTD "ToDo-list", this feature along with a number of others have found their way into OTTD thanks to enthusiasts developing their own custom patches. Problem is, not having the status as official patches for OTTD, they are likely to brake any game using any of these custom patches whenever OTTD is updated from an official OTTD developers point of view.

It is of course also true that TTDP has lost a vast majority of its users, moving on to OTTD as being the alternative currently under further developments. This however doesn't mean that the TTDP-community has gone dead or diminished into only a handful users, unwilling to embrace the OTTD-culture. On the contrary! There are still lots of TTDP-players out there, holding on to the original feel of Transport Tycoon Deluxe. And while OTTD on the other hand more and more seems to stretch in all possible directions, it's also becoming more clear than ever that anticipated directions are ruled by OTTD devs personal interests, rather than the ideas and visions of the greater community.

Or as TT-forums member "Level Crossing" puts it in his reply to the OTTD devs, (quote from TT-forums);

Quote:
While the devs state that there are good reasons that TTDP features (like custom bridgeheads) are not in OTTD, only one dev (Michi-cc) has actually bothered to actually comment in a thread that has working patches for custom bridgeheads (and multiple railtypes, etc.). (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58420) And even he only 'took some very tiny peeks'.

Are the devs really that eager to include new features, especially since they (except one) have ignored someone who has done the work for them?


And as usual, members having an opinion regardless of subject, the response is as friendly and welcoming as ever; You're an idiot! Interestingly, but no longer surprisingly, also "Captain Rands" revival of the thread rendered in the same manner, and he's after all a newcomer, not fully updated with all the discussions generated during the years on the matter!

Worse is however the backstabbing of people when leaving the room for the hallway. What can't be said directly can at least be said and ventured elsewhere, as this, as of yesterday shared, transcript shows;

Quote:
09:23 <andythenorth> in that silly v2.0 thread. You upset him I think :)
09:23 <andythenorth> hmm. statements like this: "If we would like TT to last another 20 years and bring in new players and contributors, the two halves need to become whole"
09:24 <@planetmaker> oh. Well, who cares
09:24 <andythenorth> always this fricking obsession with new players.
09:24 <@planetmaker> well, new players are important. But you won't gain them by his proposed convergence.
09:24 <andythenorth> yeah, because the reason people are playing WoW is because they checked out TTDP and OTTD and are cross that there are features different between them
09:24 * andythenorth should have some tea
09:24 <andythenorth> some days are grump days
09:24 <@planetmaker> Rather by deviating more and embracing better (G)UI and ease of use
09:25 -!- Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-65-161.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
09:25 <@planetmaker> not by adding custom bridge heads and programmable or restrictive signals
09:25 <Pikka> boo, planetmaker, boo
09:25 <@planetmaker> :-)
09:25 <andythenorth> oh it's pikka-bobble :)
09:26 <@planetmaker> Pikka, it's not like I'm against those features. But... I doubt they are crucial for a person to like the game :-)
09:26 <andythenorth> he always cheers me up
09:26 <@planetmaker> or any significant amount of people
09:26 <Pikka> true!
09:26 <@planetmaker> indeed I think at least custom bridgeheads will be quite nice.
09:26 <@planetmaker> Pikka, reference was this funny openttd v2.0 thread
09:26 <andythenorth> silly thread
09:27 <andythenorth> it should be in the suggestions forum, where I mostly don't go :P
09:27 <andythenorth> suggestions forum is just /dev/null right?
09:27 -!- zxbiohazardzx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
09:27 <zxbiohazardzx> y hello thar :P
09:27 <@planetmaker> nah, not exactly, andythenorth . But you can go wild there w/o penalty ;-)
09:27 <Pikka> well the lack of custom bridgeheads is keeping SAC out of OpenTTD, so that's one argument against implementing it I suppose.


It always amazes me that not only honesty but also friendlyness towards community members is a rare thing these days - as tiny as this community is compared to game communities online - , and it's even worse when official developers maintain attitudes and behaviors that doesn't serve any other purpose than to enhance themselves and their own perfection. And it always amazes me that it's an impression amongst some that my own personal decision to stick with TTDP is dependent a decision to implement the CBH-feature into OTTD.

While being one of the valid reasons there are of course several others. Interestingly enough it seems that the consensus is that if avoiding an implementation of, for instance, custom bridgeheads into OTTD, it would keep me from taking the step to leave TTDP for OTTD! Ridiculous to say the least! :roll: And more importantly, I have said in the past that I see no reasons what-so-ever to release whole or parts of INFRA to the OTTD-community for as long as I feel it lacks important features I find necessary and essential for my own personal game-play experience. And why not really? In my opinion it's a basic matter that I'm able to test and try out my projects also in OTTD before handing out a final release supporting a different version of Transport Tycoon Deluxe developed enhancements - and this is absolutely nothing against the common OTTD-player or anyone else.

Unfortunately though, statements like the one revealed in the transcript doesn't affect me as I can chose to move on to OTTD and use the INFRA graphics I'm the holder of, without any actual limitations as far as visual aspects regards. The ones really suffering from the statement, (and God knows how many of them are scattered everywhere), are the users of OTTD. Not me! Not ever! And I obviously need to take the opportunity to send my sincere apologies to OTTD-users for not being offered certain anticipated features, simply because OTTD devs seems to have persuaded themselves to embrace some sort of SAC-Agenda! One can only wonder why? :shock:

Unfortunately Captain Rand, your vision is most likely to stay - a vision! ;) And I seem to be forced, and not in a gently manner, to limit my own personal goals... :yawn:

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012, 14:23 
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Hi SAC,

While not trying to be the devil advocate, it isn't a simple code change, that will add bridgeheads to OTTD.

Major work on the map array is needed, and in the development section there is a recent topic about that could possibly speed up the introduction of bridgeheads on OTTD.

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58420


But, look I am a OpenTTD user, mainly for the last 5 years, but before that a Patch user, and before a TTD user and TT player..

So I see this as evolution path.


Is OTTD ready to substitute TT and TTD?

YES, I've tried a couple months ago to play the original versions, and the limitations they have compared to OTTD or even the patch are abysmal..


Is OTTD ready to substitute the Patch?

Maybe...

At this point I guess it depends on what features the Patch still has an edge over OTTD that players can't live without...


Now, I won't enter the argument of wedder the Dev's of OTTD have an agenda with you or not, nor will I say that I agree with all the decisions they make over what features should be added or not, but in this case, the code work is HUGE and isn't something even most DEV's active at the moment could make the changes to the map array to make this work...


In the end, will just have to wait and see if and when it get's added... :)



PS: Not sure where to post this, and so I'm sorry, I know it's offtopic, but could a icon be added to the web site?
It helps a lot in bookmarks :)


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012, 15:18 
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Don't get me wrong Digitalfox, I'm the first to stand up on the barricades and salute the developers of both TTDP and OTTD. They've all been doing a tremendously amount of work, dedicated their own free time, and still continues to do so - at least within the OpenTT sphere. And this is not about whether Custom Bridgeheads should be officially included in OTTD or not - or any other highly anticipated feature for that matter.

And believe me, I can't even start to imagine how much is required in terms of work when it comes to implement even the tiniest little feature requested, and each developer most certainly impresses me greatly.

But this is about the disrespectful behavior towards members in a fairly small game community, which in no possible way is benefitial for anyone of us. If anything it's an effecient way of getting rid of people, and even worse; scaring newcomers away. Perhaps their interest in TTDLX may still keep them playing and make use of features developed so far. But there's also a huge risk that some of them could be great potential graphics or coding artists, and as a result of some completely unnecessary disrespectful behavior, we're not gaining their skills. Or as one of the chat participants expressed it;

Quote:
...always this fricking obsession with new players.


It should be an obsession! This game community doesn't have a huge storage where we can pull one skilled artist after another to keep up with maintanence and a desired continiuous development of new features. It doesn't work like that. We need to attract new members, especially as this game community represents a classic game from the '90s, and not a new 3D-based equivalent. They can afford treating both members and newcomers as something the cat has dragged in, as crap basically, because new games usually have a constant flow of incoming members.

Personally I couldn't really give a rats ass about a SAC-Agenda or any other opinions floating around regarding my persona. I'm not here because I'm payed to do this, or because this is my livelihood in any possible way. I'm here because this is one of my favourite games of all time, and I enjoy improving it to the best of my abilities.

Quote:
PS: Not sure where to post this, and so I'm sorry, I know it's offtopic, but could a icon be added to the web site? It helps a lot in bookmarks :)


Yes, this is nearly insane. This isn't my first site, but it's the first time I cannot get the favicon to work. I have no idea what is wrong - or what I'm doing wrong, (again visualising my admiration towards code developers :W ) but I'm working on it...

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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012, 22:18 
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Digitalfox wrote:
PS: Not sure where to post this, and so I'm sorry, I know it's offtopic, but could a icon be added to the web site?
It helps a lot in bookmarks :)


Sometimes there isn't a logical explanation available, but for some reason the favicon works - finally. :)

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2012, 12:58 
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SAC wrote:
Digitalfox wrote:
PS: Not sure where to post this, and so I'm sorry, I know it's offtopic, but could a icon be added to the web site?
It helps a lot in bookmarks :)


Sometimes there isn't a logical explanation available, but for some reason the favicon works - finally. :)


Hi SAC,

I just removed my Firefox (version 10.0.2) cache, and yep it started showing up :)

Thanks ;)


EDIT: I taked to soon it sometimes shows up in the adress bar, but in bookmarks a blank icon appears :(

Here's a code that works:

<link rel="SHORTCUT ICON" href="http://www.appleinsider.com/favicon.ico" />

And your code:

<link rel="icon" href="favicon.ico" type="image/x-icon" />

Hope it helps :)


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2012, 18:58 
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Well, a bit off-topic... :twisted:

I actually tried the first code first, but to no avail... :?: I'll look into it though...

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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2012, 23:10 
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SAC, calm down - some people are meaner than others, especially in writing. It's no use caring what they say when you've left the room. Maybe Pikka said that just in jest, or you and him have some old fight to remember?

So, don't go the same way yourself, and start to talk about them, here.

As for the devs, you'll have to realize that in an Open Source project, it is of course! the personal interest of the devs that decides what's done. Whoever in his rightful mind would spend free time doing things he/she didn't want to do? No matter how many 'users' you get for INFRA, it's still YOU that decide what YOU want to do with it. You might listen to argument, you might even be talked into doing X, but if you don't like it, you will not finish it. Quite naturally.

So remember that every NAY you say for something in INFRA, you'll have to accept a NAY from OTTD devs :)

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PostPosted: 05 May 2012, 22:24 
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If you get large maps in ttdp ill play ttdp


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PostPosted: 06 May 2012, 22:54 
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better: make a list of features that TTDP has, and OTTD doesnt have, then we can see how realistic it is to get those features in before 2.0 and we might get some developpers interested. having just finished the 1.2.0 sprint, they should now be more open to suggestions then when the RC's are up.


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PostPosted: 07 May 2012, 04:08 
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ZxBiohazardZx wrote:
better: make a list of features that TTDP has, and OTTD doesnt have, then we can see how realistic it is to get those features in before 2.0 and we might get some developpers interested. having just finished the 1.2.0 sprint, they should now be more open to suggestions then when the RC's are up.


found this on ttwiki

http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_O ... h_features

like the programmable signals idea. i must find my ttd cd and have a look at ttdp


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PostPosted: 09 May 2012, 00:16 
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boohey wrote:
ZxBiohazardZx wrote:
better: make a list of features that TTDP has, and OTTD doesnt have, then we can see how realistic it is to get those features in before 2.0 and we might get some developpers interested. having just finished the 1.2.0 sprint, they should now be more open to suggestions then when the RC's are up.


found this on ttwiki

http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_O ... h_features

like the programmable signals idea. i must find my ttd cd and have a look at ttdp


i have them in OTTD so there is a working version for that


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PostPosted: 09 May 2012, 02:23 
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ZxBiohazardZx wrote:
boohey wrote:
ZxBiohazardZx wrote:
better: make a list of features that TTDP has, and OTTD doesnt have, then we can see how realistic it is to get those features in before 2.0 and we might get some developpers interested. having just finished the 1.2.0 sprint, they should now be more open to suggestions then when the RC's are up.


found this on ttwiki

http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_O ... h_features

like the programmable signals idea. i must find my ttd cd and have a look at ttdp


i have them in OTTD so there is a working version for that



i know a lot of patches are made for ottd but i have no idea how im hard code them into the game :shock: i just want to play the game not learn programming just to use it haha ill stick with what ive got lol


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2012, 23:51 
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More development for Custom Bridgeheads in OTTD: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 0#p1024207

A patch against a very recent trunk version, savegame compatible with trunk to boot! I know this has already been mentioned in this thread, but I felt it worth mentioning it again, since the patch is being actively developed and improved.

No precompiled binary, however, so one has to compile it oneself, which is admittedly rather difficult.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2012, 01:00 
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Supercheese wrote:
I know this has already been mentioned in this thread, but I felt it worth mentioning it again, since the patch is being actively developed and improved.
cirdan is doing a yeoman's job and I think his progress is well worth following.
Quote:
No precompiled binary, however, so one has to compile it oneself, which is admittedly rather difficult.
A pity indeed but I'll not hold it against him. Hopefully the devs will appreciate the value of his efforts and get it into trunk asap as soon as cirdan feels he is done.
A note to mention ... It is not just CBH but enhanced tunnels are also included and not for rail alone but for roads as well. :)

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