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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2012, 19:03 
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Again a member of our TTDLX-community has had a custom file uploaded to the BaNaNaS without permission, forcing this member to take actions in order to have the file in question removed. And as usual the result is a "heated" topic filled with complaints and attacks towards this member in particular, as the procedure chosen wasn't to the fullest satisfaction of the OTTD-developers... And as usual the additional backstabbing in another media took place, of course with fuel from the fact that the member in question is disliked by some people from the OTTD backroom gang... This isn't new and this isn't coming as a surprise...

It should be noted that our TTDLX-community as a game community is very small compared to many others, and it's an even smaller community when it comes to active custom file developers. With this in mind it wouldn't be a problem to ensure that files uploaded are checked in advance to clarify whether it's a valid upload or not. We're in fact not talking about hundreds of uploads on a daily, weekly or a monthly basis here. On the contrary, the number of uploads are at a minimum...

In regards to this I'd encourage our members here at Simuscape to contact us should anyone notice a file upload to the BaNaNaS that seems unauthorized, especially since custom files here at Simuscape, (SimuLibs), are available here ONLY - and simply advertised on GRF Crawler. Or better yet, use the abuse contact information finally available over at the BaNaNaS! It took awhile, but better late than never... :P

And do remember that if you're a developer of custom files, you can always have your own personal downloads category inside our SimuLibs section. Simply send me a pm and I'll arrange for this to happen...

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2012, 19:59 
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What is the problem with the OTTD developer team?
Shouldn't they be glad people are contributing to the community instead of throwing crap at each other?

I have only been an active member of the TTDLX community for a short time and behavior like this makes me think twice about that decision. So far I'm staying, partly because the game is awesome, the other part is that I haven't been affected in any way by this - yet.
Still, it is concerning - a lot of newcomers may not stay like I do when they see what's going on.

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2012, 20:10 
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I'd say this bottles down to an attitude problem over at TT-forums where those OTTD devs are "running the show", and lots of their members have left the community thanks to this - although in all fairness it needs to be pointed out that not everything comes down to OTTD devs attitudes, but also some other members... And what can't be said at TT-forums, there are always other channels available for the sincere truth to be spread behind the backs of other members... :roll:

Luckily this isn't something we have to deal with here at Simuscape as we have no connection to neither TT-forums or OpenTT incl. the BaNaNaS. Simuscape works quite differently, especially as our developing members have their own personal categories, regardless of them being members of the Guild or not. And we're all here to enjoy a game, not become members of the mob...

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2012, 22:12 
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SAC wrote:
here at Simuscape we have no connection to neither TT-forums or OpenTT

Well, except for the fact that many of the .grfs posted here are designed to be played with OTTD, eh? ;)


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2012, 22:19 
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The problem as I see it, is that since the TTDLX community is as small as it is, they can't afford to be hostile towards the community's members. It will affect everyone since good contributors may leave the community and development rate of the game decreases or even stops.

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2012, 22:35 
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Supercheese wrote:
SAC wrote:
here at Simuscape we have no connection to neither TT-forums or OpenTT

Well, except for the fact that many of the .grfs posted here are designed to be played with OTTD, eh? ;)


True, but when it comes to most of the development here on Simuscape, it's being done without any OTTD devs involved - at least not actively... ;)

SlemFreak wrote:
The problem as I see it, is that since the TTDLX community is as small as it is, they can't afford to be hostile towards the community's members. It will affect everyone since good contributors may leave the community and development rate of the game decreases or even stops.


Yeah, it's indeed a small community which initself would prevent hostility towards community members... But as long as there are spoiled brats with a "grab-and-go"-mentality running the show in some specific cases, this is the result...

It's not a coincidence Simuscape opened up the doors - although for the sake of many other things as well - but with a main purpose to offer a peaceful and friendly atmosphere for fans of TTDLX... And we do have members here that have left TT-forums due to issues, and are now developing their amazing work inside our Artists Guild... :) And I'm pretty sure others will follow in the future, should the situation persist... ;)

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 00:57 
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OK, SAC you didn't mention the name, neither will I. But it is just horrible how they treated him considering his great contribution in the newgrf development. He is not just any member of the TTD community.

And take note that in the past I had a major disagreement with that member. This I remind to stress the point that my support to him is far from biased in favor of him. I want to be fair with everyone.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 01:17 
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I dont look at the tt-forums anymore, can someone pm me the name and grf in question?


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 01:41 
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Actually, it's no secret at all... It's about Michael Blunck and his NewShips... And he had problems getting in touch with OTTD devs with his request to have that file removed, especially since the BaNaNaS lacked some form av abuse contact information - implemented now though... :roll:

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 02:37 
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Ah right, well pissing off mb prob wasnt the best idea.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 08:09 
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More-or-less official answer.
TrueBrain wrote:
Right; it seems you are very good in changing the chain of events. I didn't want to bring this all this public, but as you clearly want, let's do that.

You send me an email around 1900 my time. It was addressed to me personally, not having the time, I notified the developers to look into the matter, and get back to me if the file was ruled legal yes/no. This was the 5th of this month.

Around 1630 the next day, my time still, you send our 3rd parties an email. You gave us LESS THAN 24h TO REPLY TO YOU! By that time I had no notification you send that email.

Getting home at 1700, I first replied to you that you emailed the wrong address, to avoid future incidents you try to reach me personally, and told you which email address to use. For documentation purposes I CC'd that address, so we have these cases documented at a central place. Despite your believe, we do want to keep track of these incidents.

Next, I picked up the response of the developers: the file is illegal. I removed the file from the system, sync'd the mirror, and replied to you at viewtopic.php?p=1023581#p1023581 , telling you I didn't appreciate you contacting our mirrors, and notifying you of the removal.

Around 1900 the first mirror knocked on my door asking what the fuck was going on. You told them we didn't reply to copyright infringements, and that it happens "often". This made me go: what the hell is going on? Of course I told them what happened, I have the emails to proof the timeframe and all, and they were lucky enough pleased to see how we handled these cases, and that it was by far in a timely manner. In fact, the file was already removed from their system by this time.

Zitat:
This message arrived the next day. But it contained no information that the incident is already being handled nor about the needed timeframe to handle it.

By this time you already took it upon your self to email our 3rdparties. Don't try to act: owh no, they didn't reply instantly to me. We were processing your case, it just takes TIME. Like everything in the world does. It is unfair and highly unprofessional to not give us at least 24h to reply to your case. We take these claims seriously, and we need time to verify and process.

So to make a few things very clear:

NOTHING has changed in our regards of handling such claims. We handle them correctly, in a timely matter, in a professional way. Giving us less than 24 hours to reply to a claim is UNACCEPTABLE by any standard.

All YOU did was forcing us to make even better documentation of facts, making us want to leave the Open Source community as a whole (as with people like you, why bother making software at all?), and stealing a lot of my time as I had to reply in an official matter to abuse departments of organizations hosting our mirrors. Really: what the fuck is wrong with you?


What is even worse, and what is the main problem and reason of this thread to start with: you told our 3rd parties that we did not reply at all. In less than 24 hours of you emailing us, you told them we did not reply at all. What the fuck. Seriously. What is wrong with you? Of course I could just send them your email with timestamp to show how insane your claim was. Then you went on telling them they should terminate parties which frequently violate copyright. Seriously? What is wrong with you?

So don't come here and start playing the victim. Yes, there was a file uploaded that was in violation of copyright. These things happen on the internet. You report them, we fix them. That is what should happen, that is what always has happened, that is what will happen. But don't go defame us in front of our 3rd parties. That is lame, that is very very very bad, and should result in your sending us a public apology for said action. It is NOT acceptable behaviour by any standard.


And seriously, you suggesting that we don't take these things seriously just sickens me. You have no proof what so ever to make that claim, as there is no such proof. I know that, because we do take it seriously. So stop defaming us, stop with your bullshit, take responsibility for your actions, and next time: give us 72h to reply to your claim. If you like it or not, that is what the standard is.



As far as the rest goes: BaNaNaS is a public service, compare it with Youtube. We do what is in our power to prevent illegal uploads, but we cannot avoid it, nor filter for it. Like the whole Internet, you as copyright owner have to indicate what is in violation. We cannot track that kind of information, nor it is our job. By law (DMCA in US, EDEC in EU) this is described for exactly the same reason. And I can understand you don't like it, but the basic quote: you are not as important as you think, holds here. We do our best to keep illegal uploads from our services, but we cannot promise you it will never happen. As it will happen. And if you detect that, all you have to do is email us, and how it always has been: it will be handled appropriately. But in our timeframe. Not yours.



[Edit]
michael blunck hat geschrieben:
(..)
(..) And more obviously, w/o them contacting your webmaster in return, there would have been an even longer delay in handling the incident, I suppose.
(..)

Again, stop defaming us. Things might appear to you in a certain way, but that doesn't make them true! The file was already removed long before any mirror contacted me. (and I have the documentation to proof that) Stop making claims that are unfounded, which you cannot proof, and are downright untrue. Sure, it is easy for you to sit there and go: OpenTTD are BAD people, BAD BAD BAD people. It doesn't make us bad people. Your perception of the world is just that: YOURS. And if you make those claims here, I just ignore you, no problem. But do not make such unfounded claims to people we are in business with. That is called defaming, and illegal by law. This is not a treat, it is a warning. I suggest you take it seriously.

And:
andythenorth wrote:
@Michael, looking at this from the outside:
- the impact of the infringement looks serious, but low (a GPL infringement puts a lot of people at risk, yes. But it's not the end of the world).
- the expectations of response seem broadly unreasonable on your side.
- your actions appear to be disproportionate to the scale of the infringement.
- the potential costs/negative outcomes arising from your disproportionate actions appear to be also disproportionate to the scale of the infringement.

You are clearly starting from a correct first position, which nobody disputes; the ensuing actions as described seem to lack sense.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 10:59 
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Well, I've read this too and to me it's more of an attitude problem. Had it been let's say Andythenorth, the matter would have been solved rather quickly and without any arguments what so ever. But now it turned out to be Michael Blunck who's often the subject of the backstabbing mob's haterage in that other media. And of course that little group of impolite and misbehaved brats needed some extra fuel to their campaign, and the best way to receive that was to make it public... ;)

06:08 <andythenorth> the problem is that MB feels he has no control so goes nuclear
06:12 <Xaroth> andythenorth: MB feels the world revolves around his own head
06:12 <Xaroth> that's his first flaw
06:34 <andythenorth> I suspect with a warning, he might extract himself from the forums
06:35 <Xaroth> I see two threads, that's at least 2 warnings.. how many did it take to get banned again? :P
06:35 <andythenorth> he's not actually going to go away anyway
06:35 <andythenorth> he'll sit making grfs and occasionally sending takedown notices
06:35 <andythenorth> hmm
06:35 <Xaroth> which doesn't actually solve the problem



Is it only me or does anyone else see the pattern here with OTTD devs and their gang of followers/supporters arguings with members who happens to have a different opinion in some issues - and have the strength to stand up for it? OTTD devs may talk for as long a they want to about time frames and how quickly they respond to matters arising, but I know the time it took for me to have files removed from the BaNaNaS - again with some attitudes following the response of course, and the usual backstabbing, not to forget! :roll:

06:57 <andythenorth> also....can we fork tt-forums? :)
06:57 <andythenorth> it's become an ottd monoculture anyway :P
06:59 <andythenorth> we could establish it as 'an unsafe place'


07:04 <andythenorth> we drove out SAC, RichK67, now we drive out MB?
07:05 <andythenorth> also OzTrans
07:06 <@Terkhen> andythenorth: and what were the causes of each one of them being driven away?
07:06 <andythenorth> they don't like the prevailing attitude
07:06 <@Terkhen> what attitude?
07:07 <andythenorth> primarily the attitude of ottd devs and contributors
07:07 <andythenorth> I didn't say any of this was bad :P
07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like to add to the list of people "driven away": eis_os and OzTrans



Things wouldn't be a tiny bit of a problem if at least the attitudes would be lowered to a minimum. But at the end of the day it somehow bottles down to the huge freedom some members over at TT-forums have when it comes to their behavior towards others - all of it with Owens silent permission... And if you happen to be a bit more important, as in graphics artists or developer and at the same time a "member" of the "mob", then you don't even have to worry about receiving a warning or a ban for attacking other members or even chasing them away. And believe me, there are lots of members who has been chased away from there, never to return again. Thankfully at least some of the most talented artists have found their way to Simuscape, and are now able to continue to create and develop their work in an completely different environment, without having to deal with any mobs at all...

Still, if there aren't any problems, they can always be created...

13:29 <andythenorth> where is SAC's terms of service / mechanism for reporting abuse?
13:32 <andythenorth> I need to check that simuscape is not distributing my copyrighted work
13:40 * andythenorth has a simuscape account. Can't see any of my copyright being infringed :)
13:41 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I can fix that if you like?
13:42 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: an intriguing offer but let's not eh? :)


13:48 <andythenorth> "Artists Guild". My suspicion is that if there is infringement taking place (I have no evidence there is, nor do I claim factually there is), that is where it might be.
13:50 <andythenorth> I am going to PM SAC requesting access to Artists' Guild, and if I have not been granted access, or told that access is in process within a reasonable timeframe, I'm going to notify the ISP that I suspect copyright infringement
13:50 <andythenorth> what is a reasonable time frame? 10 days?


Oh well... Artists Guild is for creating and developing files, not distribute files posted elsewhere... We don't have a particular downloads section inside the Artists Guild, nor will we ever... Everything released on Simuscape is to be found inside our SimuLibs...

:?

However, it also needs to be said that there are OTTD devs amongst that bunch who are respectful and behave in a very good manner, doing an excellent job for the OTTD community... :W

Still...

The above posted isn't about hanging out certain members of other sites or medias, but merely show how the attitudes change from the "backroom" til they reach the more official places - which is quite disturbing to be honest... :?

But it's not a good solution to have discussions like these going on either, as none of it really contributes to a constructive solution. Therefor I ask you all; How can we better get along and improve our TTDLX community to be less hostile and more friendly and peaceful? How can we find a way to reach out between Simuscape, TT-forums, OTTD-devs and so on, with the purpose to offer a nice and creative community to be part of?

I have started a new thread to sort of address these issues right HERE!

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 14:38 
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why dont the forum admins not step in to stop all this bulls**t. and i'd be quite pee'd off if someone uploaded something i had done without my concent.

MB has every right to go "nuclear" as one t*t said.

think he needs to move to a more appreciative forum, not naming it lol :P


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 14:42 
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I think we need to have an overall discussion about how to get along and how to solve issues when they arise, And this discussion needs to involve all members, admins, developers, artists and so on...

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 15:47 
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I'll give this a think and will give my elaborated opinion later in the thread SAC started elsewhere. But first of all, can we clean up the language that is used a bit. I know that swearwords are censored by *'s, but I don't see the need for using swearwords at all in these discussions.

Even though some people will not agree at all and discussions can overheat, I still see swearwords as an uneducated, simple and barbaric way of throwing oil on a fire.

Trust me, I'm not a godfearing puritan at all and I throw them around a lot in normal life, but an internetforum is a way of discussion that can let you think before you act and can let you choose words carefully. So you can still have heated discussions, but keep having respect to others.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 17:23 
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Completely agree Quast65! :W

If we're about to find a way to get a fresh start for this entire community, it needs to reflect also the way we approach each and others in posts... So with that said I expect everyone to use proper language - even if angred and upset! Proper language and no swearwords at all! :)

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 18:14 
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SAC wrote:
... everyone to use proper language - even if angred and upset!
Haven't we done that so far ?


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 18:16 
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Yes, but it can always be repeated... To prevent it to appear... :P

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 20:24 
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Im upset about andythenorth's reaction. Access to the artists guild shouldnt be something to be blackmailed into, and as a result i would suggest that such a suggestion, which appears to be entirely serious, should result in all access being removed from such parties involved.

I don't appreciate the suggestion as one of the guild members than any of us would infringe upon any copyright and that any of our work within the closed area is anything but our own or those we credit appropriately.

I came to simuscape to get away from the animosity which is rife in tt-forums, but it seems to be overspilling somewhat into our community.

Perhaps more measures need to be put in place to seperate the two.

I thought andythenorth was better than that :(


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2012, 20:36 
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Yes well I need to defend Andythenorth on this one as it was made during a heated debate... The main thing though is that we have agreed to try to find a way to solve most of our issues so we can work alongside for the best of this entire TTDLX-community!

And for what it's worth Leanden, Andythenorth has defended you greatly today in regards to your leave from TT-forums! He's not your enemy, he's your friend! :)

It could possibly be discussed why I chosed to publish these tidbits at all, but I think it's better to get everything out in the open so we can work our differences out - rather then having someone finding it later on, and risking our entire goal to go out the window... :P

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